Invite - 2nd protest against police pursuits today

[marty]

We can only hope that in NZ, we find a restrictive pursuit policy works as well as it does in Canada.

have you ever driving in Canada? Multi-lane separated freeways, ready access to aircraft, and if you're not near a city there's 1000's of km of fuck all.

[candor]

There will be no change to police pursuit policy, until such a time as a school bus, or something similar is wiped out.

There are angles to work. How is it compatible with the human rights legislation that says Govt policies can't deprive of the right to life or actively injure people - having chase policy that per peer reviewed research increases the baseline inury risk exposure of target and the Public. Also they have not amended the law to make it permissible for Police to speed/race etc any more than for PMs late for Rugby. Just some examples of a lot of angles that could be worked...

[Patrick]

There are angles to work. How is it compatible with the human rights legislation that says Govt policies can't deprive of the right to life or actively injure people - having chase policy that per peer reviewed research increases the baseline inury risk exposure of target and the Public. Also they have not amended the law to make it permissible for Police to speed/race etc any more than for PMs late for Rugby. Just some examples of a lot of angles that could be worked...

er what??????????????

1 in 400 in your beloved Canada is far worse than here.

There is a legal exemption already, to exceed the speed limits in the execution of the urgent duty of their work. Still illegal to race to the rugby though....

[scumdog]

There are angles to work. How is it compatible with the human rights legislation that says Govt policies can't deprive of the right to life or actively injure people - having chase policy that per peer reviewed research increases the baseline inury risk exposure of target and the Public. Also they have not amended the law to make it permissible for Police to speed/race etc any more than for PMs late for Rugby. Just some examples of a lot of angles that could be worked...

Well. do you want people to stop for Police or not?
And if you do and they don't stop do you accept that Police might just have to chase after them? - (even if in a Pollyana world that you are starting to describe it's just so they can tell all the other Police where to wait in ambush with their roadspikes)

[red mermaid]

Back in the 1980's a loophole was discovered in drink drive law and Traffic Officers were not able to pursue offenders onto private property.

Virtually overnight every car that I signalled to stop made a dash stright for the nearest piece of private property, whereupon I waved goodbye to them and that was the end of the matter.

Do we want to go back to that situation with this crackpot idea of no pursuits, because that is where it will go.

[candor]

er what??????????????

1 in 400 in your beloved Canada is far worse than here.

....

Apples and oranges - 1 in 400 is out of a radically reduced number of chases over there in the first place.
I think there is a misunderstanding here - we're not actually advocating for no pursuits - it's for regular alternatives to rampant high speed ones, that will still in smarter ways usually result in apprehension of those who have it coming, on the whole. All this debate has accentuated to me is that alternatives require tech and big resourcing - but where there's a will there could be a way. Fundraisers for starchase gifts to police is one thought.

Negativity today emanating from State sector bureaucrats included messages that the Nat Ministers are like Autism sufferers and hard to distract from 3 or 4 god awful preoccupations, because they hit the ground running and bit off more populist aims than they can chew, so emergent issues are swept aside.

The bad boys and girls can be outwitted without the theatre-sports of Boss Hogg reruns, look at South Oz & others who're using alternative methods. Its called moving with the times I reckon.

[scumdog]

The bad boys and girls can be outwitted without the theatre-sports of Boss Hogg reruns, look at South Oz & others who're using alternative methods. Its called moving with the times I reckon.

Pffft!
NZ 'drivers' need to move with the times, they have a strangle-hold on immaturity...

[candor]

Pffft!
NZ 'drivers' need to move with the times, they have a strangle-hold on immaturity...

They are 15 or less - only the Inuit Eskimos have a lower driving age of 10, so its to be expected.

What led to starchase in S.A.? 4 people killed in one chase including a family of 3 - all for a stolen car driven by a prior serious crasher mutant - WTF he wasn't eva gonna stop with u after him Mr Cop!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...22/2853173.htm Expert says keep doing some pursuits but...

He recommended against pursuits for minor traffic offences and says that alone has halved the number of police pursuits in Queensland.

"There's good evidence to suggest that police shouldn't be pursuing for traffic offences," he said.

[scumdog]

He recommended against pursuits for minor traffic offences and says that alone has halved the number of police pursuits in Queensland.

"There's good evidence to suggest that police shouldn't be pursuing for traffic offences," he said.

So...if it is only a 'minor' traffic offence then it guarantees there is no other hidden offence hence no reason to pursue?
So a wanted criminal in a stolen car who had just committed a robbery would not be pursued if they (for example) were not wearing a seatbelt and who took off when the officer indicated he should pull over because he had been seen not wearing his seatbelt??

[candor]

Now who's fantasising. Most times it is what it is - no seatbelt is not a clue to identify an axe murderer any more than a creepy lack of interpersonal warmth makes Watson a psycho killer. Suspicious minds you lot have. The body in the boot fallacy is covered in Justice Goddards report.

Wondering when Munsters red rep trigger finger will tire - don't forget this post too!

[BoristheBiter]

it doesn't allow us to give out more than one red rep per person.

[miloking]

When I was 16 years old I got chased by the fuzz on my Suzuki GT380, cause I was speeding

.........

I could have easily died that day.

but you didnt and now you have great experience and awesome story to tell....dont rob the next generations of having that chance please!

[candor]

it doesn't allow us to give out more than one red rep per person.

Then he's cracked the code - try 6 (about half my reds all from one indiv).

[candor]

And slightly off topic. Ethical dilemna.

What do you do if Police aren't your friends (in fact you're apparently so annoying they like hanging out with your enemies in balaclavas, stalking you just to freak you out - linky below) and your brother was a cop or suchlike who you report to the cops complaint agency for manslaughter based on a rumour, but they tell you they can't investigate as it was over a year ago so you'd best REPORT IT TO POLICE
http://bcops.wordpress.com/2008/07/10/apologies/

... do you just give up on getting your brother put away? Or do you go see the cop who likes donning balaclavas to tease you and request your brothers arrest?

Seriously weird police conduct (too weird for IPCA) - alleged cop in balaclava "testing (a frequent complainers) reaction time" - clearly cops in that region have too much time on hands.
http://bcops.wordpress.com/2006/11/2...t-provocateur/

[davereid]

have you ever driving in Canada? Multi-lane separated freeways, ready access to aircraft, and if you're not near a city there's 1000's of km of fuck all.

Marty, I wasn't advocating the Canadian system.

My views on this haven't really changed.. and I have been trying to contribute valuably, although as it has been spread over several pages perhaps it is not that clear.

To recap :

1) When we massively increased penalties for relatively small offences, we created a motive for some drivers to fail to stop.

2) When we massively increased enforcement, we created more police - "customer" contacts which increased the number of times a fail to stop might occur.

3) We didn't back up our increased enforcement with any increase in our ability to apprehend. So the cat has now learned it can get away from our attempts to herd it.

ONLY THE FLEEING DRIVER can stop pursuits starting, and nothing discussed in this thread has addressed that.


Its my opinion that there are only a few ways we can address this.

1) We must change the perception in the fleeing drivers mind that he will get away.

I have advocated an increase in the number of motorcycle cops for this reason.

Just like a helicopter, they can't actually run a driver off the road. But very few boy-racers think their turbo-pop car will out run a helicopter, or a superbike.

Remember the most important thing is the certainty of being caught.

Large penalties are generally a signal that fear is being used as an alternative to actual ability to apprehend.

For example...
If the penalty for downloading music illegally off the internet was $100,000, but no one had ever been prosecuted, and everyone knew their was no no way of identifying who was doing the download, then I think downloads would continue.

But if the penalty for an illegal download was $50, and everyone knew they would be caught every single time they did it, illegal downloads would cease.

2) We must change the balance of motive to flee, by reducing the penalties for smaller offences, and increasing the penalties for fleeing. Without showing the desperation evidenced in the example above.

My comment about the Canadian "don't chase" policy was not advocating it.

I was pointing out, that eventually with car chases, we know that innocent people will be killed or injured.

If a school bus load of kids is killed, police will lose the right to chase regardless of the fact that the chase was caused by a criminal.

Politicians wont consider the facts, they will just react.

How many innocent people would need to be shot by police each year, before police were banned from shooting at a suspect running away ?