Legality of speed camera position?

**davereid** · 10th October 2010, 14:50

Originally Posted by Berries

... for years there have been no demerits given to speed camera tickets, which clearly would have a greater impact on someones behaviour than just a fine.

That of course is about to change. Point to point cameras and camera demerits are on the way.

The challenge for the authorities is demeriting the owner if the driver can't be identified.

I'm sure they wont let a little thing like proving guilt be a barrier to licence removal !

**pzkpfw** · 11th October 2010, 07:55

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2010/07/28...ced-in-france/

On the grounds that speed cameras have not reduced the number of accidents in the United Kingdom, the Government has decided to reduce its road safety grants to local authorities this year from GBP 77 million to GBP 56 million. As a result, speed cameras across England are being scrapped one after the other. No new speed cameras will be installed in the foreseeable future either, as the new coalition Government has withdrawn funding for them in a view to cutting costs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10762590

**Max Preload** · 11th October 2010, 10:16

We could have the ones here scrapped if people would stop being so apathetic and cease paying the infringement fees and have their day in court. Overnight the cameras would become a liability to the government rather than an asset.

**JohnJumper** · 11th October 2010, 14:55

If there's two people in the photo for mobile cameras you get off. Fixed you still get smacked

**Scuba_Steve** · 11th October 2010, 15:25

When they brought speed (s)cams in they went round saying "we won't do passing lanes" "only in black spots" "we wont hide them" etc. etc. etc. To get public support for them & make them seem like they're to do something other than make $$$ but as everyone here knows these "promises" have all gone the way of a politicians promise. So there is no rules round where they're placed. But the whole ticketing process however is Illegal just with the corruption that exists in the "justice" system there is no way to win despite law being on your side.

**marty** · 11th October 2010, 15:44

Originally Posted by davereid

They also use a beam angled across the road. This means they must be parked exactly parallel to the path of the vehicle they are tracking, or cosine errors will inflate (or reduce) the observed speed of the target.

Cosign error is always advantageous to the person being tracked. The van doesn't have to be parked parallel, just the angle of the camera has to be at a predermined angle to traffic flow, and the camera is on an adjustable tripod.

**marty** · 11th October 2010, 15:48

Originally Posted by Max Preload

They're in passing lanes all the time. He should contest it - it's mean spirited and contrary to the stated objective of 'road safety' because if you don't pass in passing lanes then you have to cross the centreline, which is inherently more dangerous than exceeding an arbitrary posted speed limit by 20km/h while staying left of the centreline.

ALL the time? I got pinged by one (only my second camera snap in 12 years) in a 50k area in Taumaranui, camera van was parked under a 50k sign and I was crossing over a pedestrian crossing outside a school.

So not ALL the time

**Hitcher** · 11th October 2010, 15:55

Remember that this is all about road safety, not revenue gathering.

**hayd3n** · 11th October 2010, 16:37

Originally Posted by pzkpfw

http://ukfrancebikers.com/2010/07/28...ced-in-france/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10762590

another reason why there are removing them is because everyone is trashing them
http://www.speedcam.co.uk./

**Scuba_Steve** · 11th October 2010, 17:01

Originally Posted by hayd3n

another reason why there are removing them is because everyone is trashing them
http://www.speedcam.co.uk./

Thats what we need to start doing here.

**scumdog** · 11th October 2010, 17:17

Hmm...one camera ticket so far - while pursuing another car.

So no complaints here.

Revenue gathering? - let 'em gather, it won't be my $$....

**davereid** · 11th October 2010, 18:20

Originally Posted by marty

Cosign error is always advantageous to the person being tracked. The van doesn't have to be parked parallel, just the angle of the camera has to be at a predermined angle to traffic flow, and the camera is on an adjustable tripod.

As you point out, its the angle of the camera to traffic flow.. not the angle of the van. But it still needs to be set accurately.

Its a common error to assume cosine error is always in favour of the driver, and for radar that is pointed directly at the target it is the case.

But I understand that speed cameras slant across the road. So Cosine error for speed camera radar can work against the driver.

This is because the radar is not direct - it is at an angle across the road, and it does not observe the vehicles true velocity. It observes velocity towards the camera, and uses trig (cosine) to determine the actual velocity.

The camera, if pointed more towards the flow of traffic will overestimate speeds. If pointed more across the road it will under-estimate speeds.

Look at it this way.

If the beam is shone directly across the road, vehicles will cross the beam with no velocity towards the camera.

If the beam is shone at 45deg down the road, the cosine of 45 is .707. So a vehicle travelling at 100 km/hr will have a velocity of 70 km/hr towards the camera.

Thus, if the camera is designed to slant across the road, it has to do math, to "see" 70.7 km/hr, but record your speed as 100, as thats your actual speed.

But, if the camera is aligned pointing down the road directly at vehicles, it will see a vehicle doing 70.7 km/hr, and will record 100 km/hr.

**Toaster** · 11th October 2010, 18:38

Originally Posted by Hitcher

Remember that this is all about road safety, not revenue gathering.

I thought speed camera vans were just funky looking "piggy banks".

On a serious note - under our law a passing lane is not a speeding lane. It is only there to allow vehicles to pass other vehicles travelling under the speed limit.

**scumdog** · 11th October 2010, 19:31

Originally Posted by davereid

That of course is about to change. Point to point cameras and camera demerits are on the way.

The challenge for the authorities is demeriting the owner if the driver can't be identified.

I'm sure they wont let a little thing like proving guilt be a barrier to licence removal !

It works in Queensland......