A miner issue

[phill-k]

While I can understand your reaction to Police Superntendent Gary Knowles I actually thought he did a good job. Don't forget who/what he was faced with when he stood in front of the camera's: a huge media rabble. The way they carried on/harped on and generally badgered with often stupid and inane questions (what relevance has the 9/11 disaster to a coal mine FFS?) pretty much called for a straight down the barrel, authoritarian approach otherwise it would have degenerated into an absolute circus. As it was he managed to keep a lid on most of the bullshit at the media conferences unlike some of the media shenanigans off camera which make my stomach turn, fuggin hyenas.

As someone who's worked both above and below ground in the mines (not coal) and now offshore on a gas platform as a member of the Emergency Response Team I can understand their rescue philosophy. In all the MOME (Management of Major Emergency) training I've done the primary responsibility is to not make the siutation any worse. Putting more people into an extremely hazardous environment could ultimately have lead to an ever greater loss of life than the tragic loss we've just seen.

Waiting as they did was probably the hardest of all things to do, but I reckon it was the right thing. With extremely limited information on the downhole environemnt sending more people in would have just been rolling the dice with more lives at stake, and with no guarantee that the guys trapped were even alive.

My heart goes out to all involved, it's such a tragedy the way it's all played out.

I'm certainly not questioning the job or decisions Knowles took, but it was very obvious his manner was upsetting the families and this has come to pass today in some of the interviews, however Peter Whittall"s approach to dealing with both the families and media I believe had a much greater effect in reassuring the families all was being done that could be done. From the start Knowles made it clear that the decisions been made were not his alone he was but the messenger to the families and NZ. I do feel that in time those that are questioning the involvement of the Police will realise they are the coordinators and have the expertise in managing these situations, however as a part of that perhaps their PR people should be charged with disseminating the information not the Officer co-ordinating.

[DougieNZ]

Yes I am sure a lot of mining and rescue "experts" will come out of the woodwork now...

There are some questions to be asked - and I'm sure they will be answered. I have asked some myself. It is only natuaral to question some of the decisions made, but at the end of the day unless you were there (and a genuine "expert") it is pretty hard to make an informed judgement.

Does anyone really think thsat a PR person instead of the cop in charge would have been acceptable to the media and the public - particularly when the Mine Company CEO was fronting and doing a great job? The media would have been calling for blood... Time and multiple enquiries will judge many involved in this incident. Now is the time for grieving.

One thing I do think is that the media were vultures filming and photographing grieving and shocked families yesterday. Are there no standards of decency anymore?

Lets give them some space and support them.

RIP the 29

[marty]

A lot of us who have coal mine/caving/alpine SAR experience just haven't bought into the on-line vitriol and gung-ho attitude that would have resulted in death for any rescuers as well as the original 29.

We have been supporting in our own way.

[smoky]

Should they have gone in - could they have gone in?
Sometimes it’s a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't

I hope there is an inquiry and wonder if the Police are the best people to be calling the shots in a mine rescue?
Our Police are far less inclined to put themselves, or take responsibility for anyone putting themselves in harm’s way, to rescue injured civilians

They have yellow track record when people lie injured and their lives are in the balance;
I remember a few years back a man who had been shot and collapsed on the door step of the nearest house, the Police kept the person in the house on the phone rather than let her attend to his injures..... he died
What about the police who stood helplessly by while a woman was stabbed to death, because they were unarmed!
Navtej Singh, Police delayed medical attention, preferring to wait nearly 40 minutes after the event fearing someone may still be in the shop armed, while he died – a subsequent report found the offenders had run off!
The Aramoana massacre; Police insisting on containing the gunman for 24 hours, not allowing an armored vehicle with medics in to help the wounded.

Mind you given the modern world of blame and arse covering, would anyone else not of been paralised by bureaucracy and fear of getting it wrong?

Are modern hero's those who make the right decision rather than the brave!

[Dadpole]

If you want to see armchair experts at their finest, I suggest you have a look on the Trademe forum.

I really despair for the future of the country if that lot are allowed to vote and breed. It is so tempting to visit them with an axe.

[marty]

Might be an ideal opportunity for some of those who know best to take up a new career in Police, work their way to the top through multiple incidents and operations, and become the next O/C West Coast

[phill-k]

A lot of us who have coal mine/caving/alpine SAR experience just haven't bought into the on-line vitriol and gung-ho attitude that would have resulted in death for any rescuers as well as the original 29.

We have been supporting in our own way.

I don't believe I have entered into some gunho vitriol, rather just expressed an opinion based on what I was seeing and hearing, the Area Commander was doing his job and by all accounts a good one, however the way he was dealing with the human side - families was and has been confirmed by various interviews on National Radio upsetting them, I was only suggesting that perhaps a person skilled in the art of communication might have done a more empathic job.

However as you mention your expertise in SAR it has also been confirmed that as the blast occurred the rescuers were in fact "kitting up" to enter the mine, they had made the decision that it was time to go in but thankfully she let go just before hand. This is information based on an interview with the brother of one of the lost miners who was staying in the same accommodation as some of the professional rescuers and they informed him of this situation and were rather effected by the possible consequences if the decision had been taken earlier.

[marty]

The gung-ho/vitriol comment wasn't directed at you, and as I have been in the position of having to deliver very bad news on a few occasions, there really is no perfect way of doing it. In hindsight even the most perfect delivery of compassion and information could have been done differently.

It has been interesting to see how people have reacted to some of the images and video - they obviously (unsuprisingly) have no idea that a mine is actually quite a 'special' place and carries quite specific risks and rules - just like alpine and tiger country bush does, and I hope it's given them a dose of stfu.

I remember seeing a post on here (can't find it now) about 'why don't we let the DF go in and get it sorted - they know what they're doing'. Yeah right. Their robot got wet. Then - possibly - contributed to an explosion.

[twinbruva]

Back in the days before 'technology' the scenario would probably have been "Damn, an explosion in the mine, take some volunteers and that canary and good luck in there finding the lads."

These days it's "We have to weigh up the risks, get some robots, weigh up the risks again, get some gas measuring devices, weigh up the risks again, drill some holes, weigh up the risks again..." Bang. "Oh shit. Told you it was dangerous."

While some risk management is important there were some who were keen to exercise some heroism but they weren't allowed. In fact they were threatened with arrest.

What would happen if the Jolly Red Giant came knocking on our shores? I dare say the heroes would be pushed to the front (pun intended) on that day.

[scumdog]

They have yellow track record when people lie injured and their lives are in the balance;

No... Police have never put themselves in danger and never rescued anybody...








Nice fuckin' troll dude, - but you'll have to do better methinks...

[scumdog]

If you want to see armchair experts at their finest, I suggest you have a look on the Trademe forum.

I really despair for the future of the country if that lot are allowed to vote and breed. It is so tempting to visit them with an axe.

Yep, it scares me to think I'm sharing this country with so many dumb-arse unintelligen non-thinking knee-jerk slack-jawed mouthbreathing bozos - and some of them ride motorbikes and share the roads I use too

[scumdog]

Might be an ideal opportunity for some of those who know best to take up a new career in Police, work their way to the top through multiple incidents and operations, and become the next O/C West Coast

THAT would never work with KB - they would have to step back from their key-boards for a start....



Ah... boy, does it feel good to let fly at times..

[phill-k]

shit I hope you're not getting at me

[cave weta]

Yep, it scares me to think I'm sharing this country with so many dumb-arse unintelligen non-thinking knee-jerk slack-jawed mouthbreathing bozos - and some of them ride motorbikes and share the roads I use too

Shouldve sent in Chuck Norris on day one..........

[Crisis management]

Back in the days before 'technology' the scenario would probably have been "Damn, an explosion in the mine, take some volunteers and that canary and good luck in there finding the lads."

These days it's "We have to weigh up the risks, get some robots, weigh up the risks again, get some gas measuring devices, weigh up the risks again, drill some holes, weigh up the risks again..." Bang. "Oh shit. Told you it was dangerous."

While some risk management is important there were some who were keen to exercise some heroism but they weren't allowed. In fact they were threatened with arrest.

What would happen if the Jolly Red Giant came knocking on our shores? I dare say the heroes would be pushed to the front (pun intended) on that day.

The bit I don't understand about this arguement (and it's not just you banging on about this theme) is the agreed facts about the "window of opportunity" following a mine explosion...there's about 3 or 4 hours when you may be able to get into the mine before the gas levels rise to a dangerous level.
So, if you've got this opportunity but the guys that raise the alarm (the two that got out) take 2 hours to do so and it takes up to 2 hours to walk into the mine.....how do you rescue anyone in the 30 seconds you have left of your "window of opportunity"?

Maybe maths isn't my strong point, but I can't seem to make the numbers add up.