Katman would probably say something a little more intelligently thought out than that. Most people would misinterpret it though.Originally Posted by RiderInBlack
on the up
Katman would probably say something a little more intelligently thought out than that. Most people would misinterpret it though.
And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.
- James Dickey, Cherrylog Road.
Recovered workaholic.
You clearly don't know the meaning if the word either. Do yourself a favour and LOOK IT UP.You're clearly confusing anecdotal evidence, that I was discussing, with proportionate vs overall representation i.e. there are more knives in possession per capita and they are used more often than firearms thus one would expect the injuries to be more common. Duh.
That's true. However, if the WRB were replaced with a concrete barrier in situation where there is less than 12m of opposing lane seperation even less people would die because there's no way for most vehicles to cross into the oppossing lane to any degree. When there's 1.5m of deflection and the lanes are seperated only by 500mm of space (250mm each side of the barrier not even accounting for the thickness of the barrier itself) then that means the vehicles are still penetrating 1m into the opposing traffic's lane. Sure, a WRB is better for most oft he vehicles than just painting a line but it still has nothing on a full concrete barrier as far as preventing egress of vehicles to opposing lanes goes. WRBs only work fully where the deflection is less than the distance to the other lanes. Surely even an idiot can see that?
Fuck, you talk some total irrelevant waffling bullshit. Lay off the drugs.
If you haven't noticed, it's supporters of WRB in inappropriate locations that are doing the sugar coating with mere anecdotal evidence that simply doesn't stack up to scrutiny.
Naturally, if you're to hit a wire tensioned on thin posts around a curve on the outside it's never going to be as good at deflecting the vehicle as it would be if hit from the inside - the shape is determined only by the post's ability to maintain the curved shape. Knock a couple of the posts out down and the tension is gone as the wire forms a chord between the remaining ones meaning the deflection in the WRB is greatly increased for any given load.
It's the only acceptable situation for me, the tax payer, therefore the customer and also the user, where there is less than acceptable opposing lane separation for effective operation.
In what context are you attempting to claim a degree of 'redundancy'?
If it wasn't for a concise set of rules, we might have to resort to common sense!
Return Of The Black Panther
Not really. I find it amusing that so many people think that clever writing equates to subject being intelligently thought out and (even worse) being right. I've see a lot of so call Intelligent People do the dumbest things in life.
As for Barriers, I would prefer one build with give in it as that absorbs the forces better. But it not that part of the WRB that will kill you. It is the I and W steel un-moving posts that are the deadly part. Movable concrete barriers tethered together and the road would be better. Even modifying the WRB so the impact forces get deflected along the WRB instead of dragging them into the posts. Ya don't have to have a Deg in Engineering to work that out.
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Forum whore
You've gotta admit though, he might be on to something.
Bogeyman
No, empirical data indicates the deflection/absorption thing isn't particularly important at the usual angles of impact, (surprisingly consistent at around 15 deg) for it’s design rating, (cars). For motorcyclists, obviously the posts are the issue, and at speeds where it might make a difference they deflect hardly at all.
It is, however a variable that civil engineers understand and unfortunately over-rate and is therefore a valuable marketing feature for WRB.
The numbers I found indicated that WRB as installed in NZ was 5% cheaper to install than traditional concrete barriers but was considerably more expensive over it’s (shorter) lifespan.
Over several performance indicators WRB performed approximately similar to concrete when installed with the recommended offset. I’m aware that communication involving one manufacturer regarding an “alternative” installation regime a couple of years ago became quite… litigious very quickly.
They're a valid target for anyone concerned with motorcycle safety.
Go soothingly on the grease mud, as there lurks the skid demon
Forum whore
Thats something I totally agree with
However reality check
9,500 or so of us screamed BULLSHIT at Nick on Parliaments lawn to arguably reduce the proposed hike of 500$ down to 178$
How many screaming bikers will it take to have these removed?
Far more than there are in NZ
So...unless someone wants to organise a worldwide BIKEOI over WRB's being poorly installed in Aoteroa, we are stuck with them
Anecdotal or not, my own experiece has been that a WRB (one of the poorly installed ones at that) saved my arse, and my girls, as a Holden Commodore bounced from post to post, breaking 3 of them too, and the wires held.
I am all for upgrading the ugly things
We can get them modified quite cheaply, our chances of getting them removed is not a reallity IMO
Just ride.
The instructions are simple...
Yep. I know the place reasonably well. And yes, some sort of impedance to turning right out of the side road is prolly a good thing. Not convinced WRB is appropriate, despite Brent's experience, for the reason/s I posted.
But when you come down to it, having to deny motorists a right turn is more a reflection on the standard of driving than any engineering need.
Do you realise how many holes there could be if people would just take the time to take the dirt out of them?
Come warm yourself by the fire
Hahahaha classic.
On a serious note however - would it kill smart ones?
Only time will tell I guess.
Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.
Come warm yourself by the fire
Ok well you think your a customer then.That's true. However, if the WRB were replaced with a concrete barrier in situation where there is less than 12m of opposing lane seperation even less people would die because there's no way for most vehicles to cross into the oppossing lane to any degree. When there's 1.5m of deflection and the lanes are seperated only by 500mm of space (250mm each side of the barrier not even accounting for the thickness of the barrier itself) then that means the vehicles are still penetrating 1m into the opposing traffic's lane. Sure, a WRB is better for most oft he vehicles than just painting a line but it still has nothing on a full concrete barrier as far as preventing egress of vehicles to opposing lanes goes. WRBs only work fully where the deflection is less than the distance to the other lanes. Surely even an idiot can see that?
It's the only acceptable situation for me, the tax payer, therefore the customer and also the user, where there is less than acceptable opposing lane separation for effective operation.
In what context are you attempting to claim a degree of 'redundancy'?
Have you done the business plan with your other parts of the customer whom have vested interest?
Do you know how much it will cost to replace all WRB with concrete ones?
Show us the facts and figures.....you are only 1 part of 4 million members for whom are the customer, I am not saying your argument is a bad one, but that you have not given us a reason of why things should change and how it should change.
Basically you have not sold the situation yet.
Simply jumping up and down, saying "Its not good enough" - or "science shows its bad" is what I would expect from a 8 year old. You are not 8, your a big boy now - you have to bring the total package to your argument, not just the flaws.
The term redundancy is a bane of my life. Redundant supply lines, redundant communications, redundant policy, redundant architecture, redundant access paths.....
Its a love hate relationship, I feel that if something is critical enough it should have 'a' form of redundancy ...... but at what level is the gray area. I mean there aren't many 2 engine motorbikes etc
Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.
on the up
The Department of Transport and Regional Services (part of the Australian Transport Safety Bureau) commissioned a report in 2000 from Monash University's Accident Research Centre into Motorcycle and Safety Barrier Crash-testing.
I think this report is still valid, especially as NZ looks to Monash University for the lead in Motor Vehicle safety here.
The study states that:
"... with regard to motorcyclists, barriers should be designed with the aim of containment in mind, as long as the containment of the rider does not result in more severe injuries than would be sustained if the rider were to pass over, through or under the barrier. This view is consistent with that of all of the authorities and stakeholders consulted where it was generally agreed that containment and redirection of the rider will prevent subsequent impact with hazards that lay beyond the barrier. A review of the literature identified several barrier design issues which impact upon motorcycle rider safety.
The literature suggests that the most dangerous aspect of guardrails with respect to motorcyclists is exposed guardrail posts. Both the tops and bottoms of the posts present edges and corners which act to concentrate the impact forces and thus, increase the severity of the injuries sustained. Impacts with guardrail posts can cause serious injuries through deceleration of the torso, fracture of the extremities, or occasionally, decapitation. In addition, the jagged edges of wire mesh, or wire mesh topped barrier systems provide numerous lacerating surfaces which serve to accentuate rider injury risk. Barrier systems of insufficient height can also pose a threat to riders as they can be catapulted over the top of barrier systems. Alternatively, barrier systems such as W-beam barriers and WRSBs that leave a space between the road surface and the bottom of the barrier, potentially allow riders to slide under the barrier into contact with roadside hazards. Rigid barriers cause the rider to absorb virtually all of the kinetic energy at impact thus increasing injury risk for riders, particularly as the impact angle increases...
- The RTA believed that the poor energy transfer properties of concrete barriers may be underestimated by motorcyclists, especially at higher impact angles. In addition, other road users would experience higher injury severity from the substitution of concrete barriers in the place of WRSBs. The Motorcycle Council believed that the problems with energy-sharing properties (such as with concrete barriers) presents less of an injury risk to motorcyclists than barrier types that do not have a smooth continuous surface (such as W-beam and WRSBs).
- In terms of WRSBs, it was the opinion of the RTA that the posts of this barrier type would be more dangerous to riders than the ropes themselves. The Motorcycle Council expressed concern regarding both of these features, noting that while there is no existing data to suggest that the wire ropes cause severe injuries when struck by riders, they believe the ropes would be abrasive and concentrate impact forces over a small area.
- The sharp edges and the tops and bottoms of W-beam barriers were identified as inherently dangerous features for motorcyclists.
- It was suggested by the RTA that the posts of WRSBs could be made more forgiving for motorcyclists by making them out of a frangible material and/or by flattening out the posts to increase their surface area in the direction that they are most often hit by motorcyclists.
- The concept of covering WRSBs with some sort of sheath (possibly made of a rubber/plastic compound) was suggested to improve the safety performance of this barrier type."
And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.
- James Dickey, Cherrylog Road.
Recovered workaholic.
But most of the others are blissfully ignorant or not posting here.
That says to me that there was not only no need to install them in unsuitable locations with minimal lane separation where concrete barriers are more effective but that it was more costly long term even in the ideal locations!
So the fact they're not installed according to the manufacturers guidelines isn't cause enough for you to look into and discover the reasons those guidelines exist in the first place? I'm not selling anything - I'm expressing my opinion based on the physics and common sense. Since there's no appreciable cost saving yet higher ongoing maintenance costs over a concrete barrier, they're a total fail. Pure and simple. You're welcome to try and prove otherwise.
I don't have to do anything of the sort. Now the science is not enough but anecdotal evidence is?
That's nice. But what's it's relevance to any part of this discussion?
If it wasn't for a concise set of rules, we might have to resort to common sense!
Forum whore
Not at moonshine.
It needed to be closed
I recall crossing the bridge heading north before that turn was closed off to both sides of SH2 at a sedate 80kmh on Dads old GN250
Even at 80kmh, I was near taken out by a cager (yes bad driving by him for sure) who turned right out of moonshine and direcly into the lane as opposed to the long run on lane that was there before
Also people turning RIGHT off sh2 into Moonshine constantly underestimated speed of southbound traffic
Closing Moonshine off as they did was a good thing...(except for my beloved WRB being used)...I would have preffered W beam, but hey...
After enough close calls on one stretch of road, I wonder why they dont just re-build the bloody bridge properly and straighten it (just a bit) and make it 4 lanes like the rest of the road will be if those works ever get completed.......
Just ride.
Forum whore
Oh man will you stop making sense? LOLYou've gotta admit though, he might be on to something.
Just ride.
on the up
I've got some bad news for you on that one Brent. According to the information I've read the road works will simply install a 3 metre wide low profile concrete barrier inbetween the lanes.
The NZ Transport Agency has awarded the tender for the $2.4 million project to Fulton Hogan Ltd, with work to widen and reseal this stretch of highway due to start next week (week starting June 14). At least one lane of traffic in each direction will be open at all times to minimise delays.
The road widening will enable a three metre wide median strip to be marked out, once the stretch has been resealed. This work is expected to be complete by early next year. The construction of the median barrier will take a further 10 weeks and is expected to be completed by mid next year.
NZTA’s State Highways Manager, Wellington, Rob Whight says these safety improvements are necessary because of the high crash rate along this stretch of the River Road.
For more information please contact:
Joanna Poole
Senior Communications Adviser
T 64 4 894 5211
M 021 648 571
Joanna.poole@nzta.govt.nz
The dual carriageway update isn't due to be started until 2015.
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/st...egic-study.pdf
And I to my motorcycle parked like the soul of the junkyard. Restored, a bicycle fleshed with power, and tore off. Up Highway 106 continually drunk on the wind in my mouth. Wringing the handlebar for speed, wild to be wreckage forever.
- James Dickey, Cherrylog Road.
Come warm yourself by the fire
Then don't expect anything to change.
Contrary to popular belief change is not brought by those who ask for it.......its brought by those whom do it.
Reactor Online. Sensors Online. Weapons Online. All Systems Nominal.
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