Forum whore
Out of interest, did people hate on the natives before the war? And after it?Originally Posted by oldrider
Doesn't look to me as if it served that purpose mentioned very well, worse when you consider the number of Kiwis who died during that conflict. Maybe another solution would be more optimal.
Just faidin away!
I don't remember prior to WW2 I was only born at the start of it!
Before WW2 there were a lot of restrictions on just where Maori were allowed to go and that was all quickly dispensed with when all the men returned and equality and mutual respect prevailed.
My meaning was that a common crisis and National threat made us pull together as a nation.
Where I lived and grew up Maori Pakeha relationships were really good can't ever remember any of the sort of bullshit that goes on now.
As kids we were in and out of each others houses, overnight stays, meals etc, never really noticed the racial difference!
One thing we were all really told off for was speaking Maori and it was the Maori families that didn't want their kids talking Maori!
In hindsight it is easy to see that was a mistake but Maori parents wanted their kids to get a good education and English was the language of the future, or so they thought.
As a kid and until more recent years I could generally understand Maori but could not speak it!
I have no problem with Maori language being compulsory in primary school but after that it should be optional.
I hope that Maori and Pakeha (non Maori) relations drift back closer together like it was before television turned Maori youth into imitation American black people! (JMO)
I can't make up my mind whether threads like this one do the healing process much good but at least people are expressing their feelings and thoughts, not keeping them bottled up and festering!
Some of the stuff is both informative and interesting, so it's not all bad is it?
Along for the ride...
Again I have only been here a limited time, but as I understand it, the basis of democracy is that "all men are created equal". That means ALL. No special benefits for some.
I can understand the frustration that Pakeha have as well, as it is the neverending outstretched hand that want more. Pakeha understand that what they have to do to get what they want is to work hard for it and fight for it. Why should they work hard for it, and pay taxes so that others can get preferential handouts and treatment instead of their own families. At some stage, it must stop. Democracy means equality, and equal opportunities for all. End of.
Either join the western society, properly, as free and EQUAL men, or change to a fully Maori culture. Actually this second aspect is not even an option anymore, realistically because Maroi culture is in effect western culture - lets face t, it aint that different anymore.
I dont see on what basis Maori can justify cherry picking the best aspects of both when there aren't even that many real differences between their own culture and NZ western culture anymore? NZ is a modern western society, and Maori have in effect realistically been part of it for a long time already. But they have not made the jump in their mind- perhaps because they have greedy chief who think they can squeeze more (perhaps unwarranted) financial gain from the government by convincing enough Maoris that the world owes them something. The leaders are not doing their people any favours by instilling this sense of entitlement in them. They sow division withn NZ society for their own gain, not because they are good leaders that look after their own.
The way I see it, whoever has greviances must now speak up or forever hold their peace. An accused man has the right to call reasonable time on anybody that may have a greviance against them. Stringing this crap on for 20 0years is unreasonable. Get it done and dusted, so that society can move on - as equals- without having a sword of justice/guilt hanging over their heads. And without sowing divisions in NZ society.
The way I see it, this questioning about "when will it ever end?" by the Pakeha is not a philosophical question -its notice of an impending deadline. It is signalling an end of their willingness to keep handing over what they worked for on the basis of guilt.
The one thing man learns from history is that man does not learn from history
Calvin and Hobbes: The surest sign of intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.
Its easier to apologise than ask for permission.
Wise words:
Forum whore
Truth talk right there.
Yeah I know, I just don't have much love for war and what it really does to a man.
Anarchic Wild Child
Yes. Good luck finding the truth.
Yes, that was a mistake. It's one we are trying to correct, with resistance from our Pākehā friends - as you know.
What fascinates me is that on a day-to-day level and between actual people we get on really well. We work together, [play sport together, get drunk together, go hunting togwetyher, sleep with each other ..
It's only when we start talking about each other as a group that we slag each other off. Don't we trust our friends?
I don't know how many times I've heard memebrs of one group saying "Bloody Māori ..." "Bloody Pākehā .." then turn to their mates and say "we don't mean you ..." Well, if they don't mean their mates who do you mean ? Don't we trust our friends?
I think it's useful. At least people are listening to each other and thinking .. that has to be good. Or maybe I'm dreaming ... do people really listen in an internet forum like KB? But at least I've noticed a change in what people are saying here ...I can't make up my mind whether threads like this one do the healing process much good but at least people are expressing their feelings and thoughts, not keeping them bottled up and festering!
Some of the stuff is both informative and interesting, so it's not all bad is it?
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
SH1 rider
I the Pakeha are assisting the re-learning of the maori language. the resistance (IMPO) is to it being forced on those that don't want to learn it.
Anarchic Wild Child
In the ideal yes. In reality No. Especially when it is mixed with 20th/21st Century Capitalism.
Hang about - are you suggesting that Māori don't understand that? Are you suggesting that the majority of our people are not out there working? IN shearing gangs, timber mills, logging crews, in Government departments, in management positions in many industries? Owning their own businesses?
Do you not know that Māori have the highest percentage of entrepreneurs of any ethnic group in the world? If the entrpreneurs are the wealth creators, then who is actually creating New Zealand's wealth.
Do you not know that the percentagoe of the Māori populationin tertiary education is higher than the Pākehā percetnage of population? We are doing things to improve our lot and working hard ... just people like you haven't noticed, or don't care .. just want to slag us off.
There's a high percentage of Māori in Government departments and ministries. The Nats are about to give Public Servants the chop - who do you think is going to lose their jobs? Which party is about to increase Māori unemployment?
To lump us all in as having neverending outstretched hands is simply a racist conception.
Hang about - what do you mean by "preferential treatment" ? You'll need to be a bit more specific before I can respond to that one ...
The rest I'll reply to shortly. Haven't got as huge amount of time right now.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Don't forget to bring a towel
Trust no one.
Since when does starting a business stealing cars and scrapping them for parts or burgling peoples houses to sell their stuff count as an entrepreneur?
Just faidin away!
Very true, it is as if the "they" are another anonymous group of people away out there somewhere!
The guy that sends me the most Maori jokes is Maori, we even talk about "them" (Maori or Pakeha) as if "we" (the group discussing the subject) are not part of it!
And we wonder why "they" (which is actually us) don't do something about it!
We are a weird mob all right!
Along for the ride...
No. Straightout - ALL men are equal. Not some that have a birthright to be treated differnetly. an easy concept. You may complain that perhaps the wealthy have an advantage- thats because their parenst sacrificed more and worked harder. And took risks. You mentioned about Maoris being entrepreneurs - so then you will appreciate the risk/reward payoff inherent in the capitalist way.
But at a base LEGAL level - in a democracy, all are equal. Not:
- some get seats on city councils reserved for them, or
- some get first choice at uni spots based on race, or
- some get pubic funds singled out for them for supporting their business, based on their race, or
- some get laptops when attending uni, while others dont, or
- some get preferantial home loan rates and support.
You have described a lot of successful Maori. So they must had been gven a good chance to be successful, right? As much chance as anybody else. So whay are there so many that want more, in addition to what is provided for anybody else?
I understand that most Maori are in settled jobs, and work hard like any other normal person. I am commenting on what I see on TV - Maori people going on at government all the time demanding rights and exceptions and money and land and, and and, and... based on greviances dating back hundreds of years. And when one group is paid out, it seems that another group seems to take its place, almost like here was never any real heirarchy, and groups of isolated chance takers take turns to make loud noises.
As with most societies, the majority tend to be seen in teh light of the minority of extremists who tend to make the most noise. Now you expect the representative group to make moderate noises to somewhat balance the noise from the extremists. But, and this may just be me not seeing this, I dont hear any moderate noises coming from any Maori leadership group at all. In fact just the opposite - with Hone acting like a racist c%$t with a massive entitlement chip on his shoulder most of the time. in fact I am not sure if there is a group of people represnting moderate Maori views? This leads me to believe that Maoris in general have extreme views, and a sense of "entitlement" - being entitled to treatment above and beyond what is given to everbody else.
Perhaps the Maori leaders have made a choice to let the young hotheads have their run and mouth off, to see what the government does in response, and to see if they can leverage any more "assistance" from it. But then they cannot bitch when the public starts seeing Maoris as being generally extreme in their views, and wanting more preferantial treatment all the time. There will always be extreme backlashes to extreme views- that is the nature of man. Perhaps if you chaps censored your own mouthpieces a bit, there would be more moderate views on Maoris in general.
What other representative body is there? Do most Maoris support the Maori party - or are they there to represent the extreme Maoris only? Do most Maoris just vote National/Labour? Why is there a Maori party at all - a political party based on race doesn't make sense, since the Maori population is as diverse economically as the extreme ends of Labour/national, from the poorest, to the richest. How can one party pretend to represent the rights of a groups so economically diverse with different wants and needs?
Perhaps if more moderate Maoris mouthed their opinion of the Maori party's rantings, then there would be more moderate views towards Maoris in general. Or perhaps Maoris should stop seeing themselves as Maoris and start seeing temselves as New Zealanders?
See above - in my short time here, I have already seen that there is soooo much more assistance for pretty much anything if you are Maori. Hell, even home loans.
Perhaps I should claim to be Maori - how would anyone prove otherwise? In the old South Africa they had ridiculous tests for ethnicity to support racist laws - you cannot enforce these rules if you cannot prove the difference- and this resulted in Portuguese and Italians becing regarded as black, and all sorts of screw ups. But the fact is that there is no hard and fast scientifc test for ethnicity.
I have no issue with holding your culture and language dear, and keeping it alive. Just like I try and keep Afrikaans alive in my houshold by teaching my kids, and eating traditional Afrikaans foods. But demanding an uneven share of the taxpayers money for preferential treatment on a basis of "we will decide when it ends" is just not right in this modern society.
The one thing man learns from history is that man does not learn from history
Calvin and Hobbes: The surest sign of intelligent life out there is that it has not tried to contact us.
Its easier to apologise than ask for permission.
Wise words:
Anarchic Wild Child
OK - next ...
All cultures "cherry pick" ... British culture has done just that from the culture of the Picts and Jutes, Celts, Romans, Saxons, Angles, .. etc etc ...
I have no idea what you mean by "a full Māori culture". Isn't that what we live? Are you saying that we should dump anything that was brought here by the immigrants since 1792?
And how much do you know of contemporary Māori Culture? Have you lived in it to make a judgement which says there is little difference?
You are making some huge judgements about what our leaders are saying and telling our people. Have you listened to them? The people you see on TV are not our leaders ...
Yes. There will be no new claims of historic grievance to the Waitangi Tribunal. The claims were cut off two years ago ... whatever is on the table now is it. These claims will be worked through in due course. You're commenting when you obviously know very little about wehat is happening.
And, yes. There will be no new historical grievance claims ... only working through what is now on the table. How long that will take depends on both parties (actually National are quicker about it than Labour ... bad pun I know .. but the claims have been put up it's up to the Governmetn to work through their part in it as well as ours) )
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
SH1 rider
interesting comment. When Nat first suggested the deadline for claims settlement Labour said it couldn't be done fairly, then came up with their own longer deadline. Your comment implies National is doing it by not mucking around rather than short cutting the process. Is this truely the case?
Anarchic Wild Child
No disagreement there.
Now we disagree. The basis of our legal system is in our European-derived culture. The concepts you speak of here are not the same in Māori culture.
The legal system is essentially the formalised exercise of power and the rules that go with it. The democratic system we live under was never part of tikanga, and it's imposition is an act of colonization. We have very different ways of selecting leaders (and don't look at the runanga structures, which has elections - that system was imposed on us by the colonizing government. (No votes - no funding).
I agree that the gauranteed Māori seats in Parliament are undemocratic in it's purist sense - but that's not a problem for us. Democracy is the problem for us, not the gauranteed seats ... it's the reverse for Pākehā. And don't think for one moment I am arguing for a theocracy or a fuedal system, as some of you might think. Māori power structures are, if run properly, inherently more fair as they do not disenfranchise the minority. And that's the big thing - We look after the minorty as well as the majority - so there is not either/or - just a consensus.
I do not know of any Māori who gets free laptops at uni other than from family trusts. (And I work in Tertiary Education) .. happened once, not any more. And Māori working in tertiary education objected just as strongly to the organisation that did it as Pākehā did.
Or get special home loans and support. It's actually harder for us to get home loans to build on ancestral land, as we can't put up joint-ownership land as collateral. They might get loans from family trusts, but how does that differ from Pākehā family trusts?
Or get first choice of Uni places - can you show specific examples?
Hmm ... dependency syndrome was learnt from the Pākehā, and Pākehā have it too. I know severasl Pākehā women who have had many chldren - to increase their DPB payments. I don't know any Māori women who have done that. Most of the ones I know with heaps of children simply did not use contraception - a failure or a lack of knowledge? But of both. Some of us are working to break all of that in our people.
And, if the land had not been taken from us, we might all be in a better position today than we are. The theft of the land was recognised as worng at the time, but still continued, right up to 1974. We need resources to work to better our people. Those resources were taken by the colonizers.
So hang on - you're saying that you recognise that TV News has given you a distorted view -(I agree it has) but you are still willing to comment based on that distorted view?
Secondly, as late as 1967 the Government changed legisltation to force Māori owners to sell land - to the Government - this was finally stopped in 1974. This is not all grievances hundreds of years old ... there are grievances which date from times within the lifetime of people reading this now.
While the moderate (and even conservative) Maori voices are there, the media has no interest in reporting them. There's no controversy there - it's not attractive to the audience ... again, the media is distorting your view.
Let me see .. there are Maori in Parliament in the National party (are they going to be extremists?) The Labour Party (are they extremists?) ACT, Greens, NZ First (Is Winston an extremist? He's Māori) ... Sir Graham Latimer and Sir Wira Gardner were both very senior officials in the National Party ... former GG Sir Paul Reeves (Anglican Bishop - an extremist?) ... and Māori vote across all parties - reference below ...
They do - and the media don't show them to you.
I sincerely hope so. That will only happen when Pākehā stop seeing us as Māori and therefore lazy bludgers with their hands out, and Māori stop seeing Pākehā as the arsehole colonzising oppressors ... what has to change to make that happen?
Good. Accord us the same privilege. The difference is that Afrikaans is a European-derived culture, like New Zealand's Pākehā culture. Māori culture is essentially Polynesian.
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Anarchic Wild Child
let me expand on that one a little bit.
We are not looking at equality, but at Equity - a slightly different thing.
If we look at the life chances of children, sure, children in rich families have more and better life chances than children in poor families. Children with poor life chances tend to end up in jail, as addicts, poor educational outcomes, low-paid jobs, unemployment, etc etc ..
Now, Māori children generally have fewer and poorer life chances than Pākehā children. Many of them end up exactly as I described above - in jail, unemployed etc etc ...
We are saying that because our resources were forcably taken and we were not able to join the modern world as equals ( we tried but it all got taken from us) then right now we need help to improve the life chances of our children. So, give us some money to settle past grievances and we will use that reousrce tyo A) build it, as Ngai Tahu and Ngati Awa have - very quickly doubled the money the crown gave them. That will give us the basis to imrpove the life chances of our children.
This will pay off in the future, in lower prison costs (fewer Māori criminals) lower health costs (Better Maori health) lower benefit costs (More Māori in employment ) etc etc ..
"So if you meet me, have some sympathy, have some courtesy, have some taste ..."
Highway Biker
Now don't go asking for evidence and facts. If we all based our "opinions" on truth, where would the world be?
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks