Emergency braking: Clutch or de-clutch?

[Crasherfromwayback]

I do use the rear sometimes mid corner or on a double apex corner to settle the bike which works quite well but im getting off topic sorry.

No problem. As good a time to talk about that as any.

[The Stranger:Me]

Not saying you're wrong...but I dunno about that. As a practice thing I used to do on my moto-x bikes at the beach, I used to ride for as long as I could with the front wheel locked on the juice. Simply to understand what the front end felt like locked, and to learn how to control it. I think it's easier to do that with a bike with more rake (as in dirt bike and cruiser) than a full on sports bike with a steep rake.

As I say, it's simply a product of observation and I accept that I may well be wrong that regard.
I honestly can't recall seeing a sport bike go down during emergency braking, but I can recall 3 cruisers. In all those cases as the front locked the steering snapped to full lock then the bike went down.
I'd like to believe that it's not just that cruiser riders are less skilled than sport bike riders.

[Crasherfromwayback]

I honestly can't recall seeing a sport bike go down during emergency braking, but I can recall 3 cruisers. In all those cases as the front locked the steering snapped to full lock then the bike went down.
I'd like to believe that it's not just that cruiser riders are less skilled than sport bike riders.

Plenty of road race bikes going down on the picks though, as compared to moto-x bikes (the rake thing).

And plenty of sport bike riders would argue they are better!

[Metastable]

To a certain extent, they say this'll work on full on race bikes as well. I think it's a valid point of view on cruisers, but not so on sports bikes. I tend to think when hard out on the front picks on a sports bike, the rear only settles it a little and stops it swinging round and trying to overtake the front wheel. Right up to the point that the rear wheel is off the deck.

IMO, and the way I have done it..... it is merely a very quick stab (and release) of the rear brake on a sportbike as you are loading the front. On a cruiser I'd keep on the rear brake during the entire stop.

If you practice emergency braking on dirty road you can practice locking and releasing the front.... and yes you can lock the front on a sportbike, been there done that... twice.


Also - it was interesting hearing you talk about locking the front while on the gas. Apparently Jason Britton did that at highway speeds on a Hyabusa during the journalist launch in the US of their 2nd generation bike. It caused a huge flat spot on the front tire. (disclaimer - that is completely nuts.... so don't try it unless you are in controlled conditions with an ambulance nearby )

[Crasherfromwayback]

and yes you can lock the front on a sportbike, been there done that... twice.

Didn't actually say you couldn't. Done it many time myself road racing, especially in the wet. Just more likely to end up on your head than on a dirt bike etc.

[Metastable]

Didn't actually say you couldn't.

Oh I know you didn't.... I was responding to another post saying it is hard to lock the front on a sportbike ...it is, but it can be done. What you say is typically bang-on IMO.

[rdkls]

Talked with you about this on Wednesday hey Phil.

My opinion is that the fewer things you have to give attention to the better, especially when in danger / shitting thyself.

According to the study you mention, and this is also what I would intuitively guess, optimal braking = reducing all forward forces i.e. clutch and back brake, and no doubt holds if you put a smart multitasking robot on the bike.

But in the real world, in an emergency, I really don't think my brain is going to go "ok left hand you pull all in, right foot you apply a bit but don't lock up my rear, now right hand squeeze a bit, now progressively harder";

I'd rather just be optimal with the front.

If learners still have throttle open, check lever position and drill that out properly.

I also think, for learners, it's most important to be taught and drill progressive braking. The mnemonic I was taught was "set up, and squeeze".
Understanding and practicing this made the biggest improvement to my braking.
In searching I see this is more common in Australia as it seems to be in all learners' motorcycle books e.g. http://www.scribd.com/doc/6358130/Riders-Handbook (p.20)

[p.dath]

Engaging? really? so you recommend they don't pull in the clutch.

My error. I try to say "pull the clutch in" to avoid that mistake.

My opinion is that the fewer things you have to give attention to the better, especially when in danger / shitting thyself.

I'll go further, and say that your unlikely to be able to devote hardly any cognitive input during an emergency to motorcycle controls.

But in the real world, in an emergency, I really don't think my brain is going to go "ok left hand you pull all in, right foot you apply a bit but don't lock up my rear, now right hand squeeze a bit, now progressively harder";

We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe you will have the cognitive ability to think about it at all, which is why is say it has to be an automatic reaction, and you can only make it an automatic reaction through practice.

Also, I only discuss a two step process. Pull in clutch with left hand and apply full rear brake. Second step, progressively pull in front brake harder and harder.

And you'll also notice that I tell riders not to worry about locking up the rear wheel, and that indeed at a lot of them do at the practice - and absolutely nothing bad happens.
And as I have said previously, getting a rear wheel lock is not uncommon once a lot of weight is on the front wheel because the rear wheel has reduced traction.

You'll also note that I get new riders to experiment with front and rear only brake inputs, so they can learn what works best for them.

I'd rather just be optimal with the front.

Seems a waste not to using a braking mechanism when your trying to brake in the shortest possible distance. But different techniques work for different people on different bikes, and as I say at the practice, there are many methods and you need to find what works best for you, but that I can only teach one at a time.

If learners still have throttle open, check lever position and drill that out properly.

The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt. You may simple need to ditch a lot of speed quickly before going around an obstacle.

I also think, for learners, it's most important to be taught and drill progressive braking. The mnemonic I was taught was "set up, and squeeze".

And that technique sounds fine to me as well. You just need to start getting some weight on the front wheel, smoothly.

[bogan]

The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt. You may simple need to ditch a lot of speed quickly before going around an obstacle.

It's not a single focus, it's about ensuring the bike is set up correctly before learning any habits. And as I've said before, you can still blip with that lever setup, it just requires a conscious decision, while no throttle when under heavy braking is automatic.
Do you check the lever positions for the learner riders you teach at all? All the stuff I've read suggests this is one of the first things to do.

[p.dath]

Do you check the lever positions for the learner riders you teach at all? All the stuff I've read suggests this is one of the first things to do.

Only those having problems with the levers. 99% of them have no issue.

[CookMySock]

I don't believe you will have the cognitive ability to think about it at all, which is why is say it has to be an automatic reaction, and you can only make it an automatic reaction through practice.

Everyone is different, and while I do not disagree with you here I suggest many have the ability TO ACTUALLY USE THEIR BRAIN under stress.

And you'll also notice that I tell riders not to worry about locking up the rear wheel, and that indeed at a lot of them do at the practice - and absolutely nothing bad happens. And as I have said previously, getting a rear wheel lock is not uncommon once a lot of weight is on the front wheel because the rear wheel has reduced traction.

NO! Is all emergency braking in a straight line? What are the consequences of locking a rear wheel when the emergency braking is on a curve? What is the benefit to the rider WHATSOEVER for locking the rear wheel?
Answers: no, lowside, none.

The problem with this single focus on lever position is that it compromises other techniques that need to be learned, such as being able to brake and blip and change down at the same time. There are times when you need to do this to loose a lot of speed quickly but without the intention of bringing the bike to a halt.

How does blipping the throttle help you "lose a lot of speed quickly"? Why are you drilling it as an emergency procedure then?

[bogan]

Only those having problems with the levers. 99% of them have no issue.

Maybe you should extend that to cover problems that could be caused by improper lever position as well, it's such a simple thing to check and fix (generally) and makes a huge difference.

[Oscar]

The nuances of technique mean very little unless the rider has practised emergency ‎stops until they become second nature. I also doubt that where the rider has reached a ‎high level of proficiency, the timing of the clutch application would make much ‎difference in stopping distance.‎

I also had a smile looking at that web site where he made comment about the “..lay ‘er ‎down.." technique. In thirty odd years of racing, abusing, watching and generally ‎riding the shit out motorcycles I have never seen a rider deliberately laying it down. In fact the opposite is true - there are any number of guys out there with injuries caused by hanging on until the last possible second in the hope of saving it (check out Mike Doohan and Aaron Slight's fingers). ‎It is actually quite a difficult thing to pull off deliberately and I suspect it’s a ‎convenient excuse after crashing due to the over application of the rear brake..‎

[Crasherfromwayback]

there are any number of guys out there with injuries caused by hanging on until the last possible second in the hope of saving it (check out Mike Doohan and Aaron Slight's fingers).‎

Probelem being Oscar, think you'll find their injuries were from getting the hand trapped by the lever and or handle bar and having the flesh ground off them. Can't be so sure of Doohans, but I know that's what happened to Slighty. Ground the top of his hand away badly.

[Oscar]

Probelem being Oscar, think you'll find their injuries were from getting the hand trapped by the lever and or handle bar and having the flesh ground off them. Can't be so sure of Doohans, but I know that's what happened to Slighty. Ground the top of his hand away badly.

Yeah, I talked to Aaron just after he'd had the skin grafts.
My point was that I've heard guys saying that they "layed 'er down" as if it was a deliberate option, not the result of losing control. The likes of Slighty and Doohan have their hands on the bars until the very last second in because they know that with a leetle bit more time/luck/skill they can save it...