Rodney Hide resigns

[Ocean1]

I have guilt that I shafted a great idea

Don't sweat it, dude, you didn't.

[mashman]

Shag! You guys have filled a page wile I refreshed my browser.

Not sure whether you touched on the evolutionary influence.

Humans are social animals and do function in loose herds. We do act altruistically helping others at a cost to ourselves for no payment/benefit. This puzzles psychologists and the theory is that helping the group is an investment in your own safety and well being. If you help your sick neighbour then their family etc may help you in the future.

Which is what happens in a community.

The primal instinct in every animal is selfish. Survival. We can't breed it out of ourselves and indeed its a strength. That instinct drives people to invent things, try new ideas, gather more material wealth so that they are safe from need. The group benefits from the individual's efforts.

heh. It's been a bloody good (and very rare) chat I reckon. Even though MT won't admit that it can be done in 2 years... he secretly knows it j/k

That could very well be the case. But judging by the multitude of reactions society currently exhibits I don't think that is the main driver. Survival is a given these days, financial security in one form or another exists from the govt, healthcare, some spending money, roof over your head etc... Everything else is just cream. I don't see our instincts being the major cause in any way, not in this instance, and out instincts will not drag us out of this funk. That's one of the reasons I don't think the evolutionary influence is in effect.

Asian societies tend to be more group focused than anglo-saxons. I'd guess some African ethnicities are too. This allows these societies to grow harmoniously and plan ahead.

The downside is that the individual is made to conform. There isn't much tolerance for disagreement.

It works well in business terms. Most corner shop owners I've known have cousins of cousins owning dairies, restaurants, carpet shops etc... When Dad moves on, either the son/daughter takes over, or the business is sold on (traded?) within the family. The dairy owners son may go serve his "apprenticeship" in the restaurant business and take that over after serving his time. Fuckin smart way to keep the money in the family.

Pah, you've just described the lifestyle of most of the worlds population. But I agree that aspect will never change. And as you say, it brings its own rewards.

[mashman]

Damned if I can see how Rodney Hide got us into this discussion.

Anyway Mash, I can only think of two philosophies which espouse what you are saying ie. that humans should work unselfishly and share for the good of everyone.

Communism.

Christianity.

The first has been tried and failed. The second has stumbled in various iterations for 2000 years, sometimes succeeding often not.

So your thinking is not new but good on you.

Shitty politicians and their never ending ability to screw the public over... for me anyway

That's kind of insulting too . This is not a philosophy, it's a lifestyle choice that everyone will share, irrespective of their religion, their party beliefs, the fact that their mother is butt ugly etc... Fak me . This is why I was reluctant to put up the Venus Project and their Resource Based Economy. It's the best idea I've seen so far and it had a label on it, as my powers of conveying what I "see" obviously weren't cutting it.

I know my thinking isn't new. We established that many posts ago , probably whilst you where having a sneaky watch of the wedding highlights :shitfy: . It just isn;t main stream and bloody well should be. The array of shit people have to put up with these days is avoidable imho.

[mashman]

Do you truly believe that the apprenticeship system was a glorified "work-for-the-dole" scheme?
If so, the country would be dead on its feet. No electricians, plumbers, carpenters, mechanics, engineers, etc, etc. This system produced intelligent, capable people that kept the country running.

... it then turned into a hidden work for the dole and jobless figures massaging mechanism

[mashman]

The problem i see is some of these ones that won't work will just take what they want and i doing so will cause others to hoard and protect what is theirs and so it will come full circle.

This type of thinking has been tried before and has failed due to human greed, and I don't just mean in the west. Most of these ideas are a cross over between tribalism and communism and it just doesn't work at some time someone just says fuck it i want to keep whats mine.

What's the problem for either group, if there's always going to be enough to go around? No real point in hoarding, no point in getting pissed off at that the hoarders that are hoaring when there's always going to be enough to go around. We're dealing with a country full of individuals. You have no idea what they are each capable of. Neither do I, but I do know that they aren't stupid lazy bastards and could be smarter than you an I put together (granted i'm not shoring you up much there, but every little helps ). They have what they want and get on with living their lives.

There will be nothing to get greedy over if money is not part of your primary economic makeup. , don't worry about what someone else has. If someone wants to say that's mine, get yer hands off, get the next one.

[Mental Trousers]

heh. It's been a bloody good (and very rare) chat I reckon. Even though MT won't admit that it can be done in 2 years... he secretly knows it j/k

Mate, it'd take more than 2 years to get 50% of the country to start considering there's a problem. A large proportion of them won't even acknowledge there's a problem to start with.

But it's been a good chat. A rarity on here.

[Winston001]

Survival is a given these days, financial security in one form or another exists from the govt, healthcare, some spending money, roof over your head etc...

Really? Spent any time in India? Rural China? Most of Africa and South America? Survival is still a daily struggle for the 4.5 billion people who do not have govt healthcare, unemployment benefits, or even weatherproof housing.

I was in India on a voluntary aid project 4 years ago and toured the Dharavi slum http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../jacobson-text I saw old toilets being smashed by boys with hammers to make new porcelain. You don't work, you don't eat.

[BoristheBiter]

... it then turned into a hidden work for the dole and jobless figures massaging mechanism

Now I find that insulting.

How dare you put hard working people who are looking at getting ahead in life in the same category as some fuckwit lazy arsed bastard that wants to sit on their arse expecting someone else to pay for they shit.

You say in a previous post about handing down businesses from father to son, what do you think that is, it's an apprenticeship, just because TPTB had a period of time when they subsidised part of it makes it no less ofvalue.

[mashman]

Really? Spent any time in India? Rural China? Most of Africa and South America? Survival is still a daily struggle for the 4.5 billion people who do not have govt healthcare, unemployment benefits, or even weatherproof housing.

I was in India on a voluntary aid project 4 years ago and toured the Dharavi slum http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../jacobson-text I saw old toilets being smashed by boys with hammers to make new porcelain. You don't work, you don't eat.

Sorry, I was meaning in NZ. That's one of the reasons I'd like to see a new system tried out and tried out quickly. It is fuckin disgusting, an epic fail. I've only ever seen the aftermath of Kosovo at close quaters (a year on), how people were living etc... , it was hardly surprising that the long term humanitarians were all slightly "unbalanced"... but I know it was nowhere near as bad as what the people had endured/experienced before I got there.

The world is shit. We are capable of changing that in the blink of an eye imho.

[mashman]

Mate, it'd take more than 2 years to get 50% of the country to start considering there's a problem. A large proportion of them won't even acknowledge there's a problem to start with.

But it's been a good chat. A rarity on here.

Possibly, tis just my asshat estimate of how ready I reckon the majority are, and I doubt there's a man or woman that would deny that there is anything wrong. Could be though. But if they were honest and thought about it... meh, who knows. I reckon 2 years is generous to get the buy in. Word gets around quickly, but the plan will take that length of time at least, but should be good enough in 2 years. Those who won't tag along, will be those who truly believe that they have something to lose and that society won't benefit in the slightest. I wouldn't underestimate that lobby as they'd fight dirty.

[mashman]

Now I find that insulting.

How dare you put hard working people who are looking at getting ahead in life in the same category as some fuckwit lazy arsed bastard that wants to sit on their arse expecting someone else to pay for they shit.

You say in a previous post about handing down businesses from father to son, what do you think that is, it's an apprenticeship, just because TPTB had a period of time when they subsidised part of it makes it no less ofvalue.

oh hell I must have offered the wrong end of the stick there... i wholly agree with what swoop said about apprenticeships... fuckin brilliant things... but they were used by TPTB to massage jobless figures and screw the educational institute that apprenticeships are/were. Unfortunately YTS et al did more damage than good in the UK. Private enterprise probably didn't help the situation either.

[rainman]

Interesting chat, apologies if I thread-dredge and pick up a few points from the last few pages...

These days a much higher percentage of the population live above the poverty live than ever before.

Is that even true, globally, and if so is it sustainable? I think there has been some improvement in some places, but I'm not sure you can claim "much higher". Besides in numbers, not proportions, the number keeps going up. 1.4m people below $1.25 a day and a squeeze on the middle class. Wealth is being concentrated at the top, and that's accelerating. Plus we're about to be dealt a dose of old-fashioned energy deprivation upside the head, which has an adverse effect on economic progress... and people tend not to be at the sharing best when times are tight.

Communism didn't work, neither did Fascism and few others.

Like Capitalism?

people want to be equal, they don't want to be the same.

People want fairness. I don't think many people actually expect equality, and anyone with a brain recognises we're all different in terms of skill, capability, attitude, and many other factors. Thus the old "to each according to his needs, from each according to his abilities" shtick. But I'm just being pedantic.

When we finally get off this planet and interplanetary (or interstellar) travel is common place people born and raised their entire lives off planet will evolve along a totally different path to those that live at the bottom of a gravity well.

Hmmm. Problem with that is that it will take a very very large amount of energy (and political will, and a good bit of scientific advance) to organise anything faintly resembling a real space colonisation enterprise. And we don't feasibly have that - certainly not the energy, or the tech. I think we have to learn to make a go of this planet first before we go fuck up any others.

Anyway Mash, I can only think of two philosophies which espouse what you are saying ie. that humans should work unselfishly and share for the good of everyone.

Communism.

Christianity.

At the risk of sounding like an evangelist: Buddhism (or any of the several similar philosophies that encourage a more realistic understanding of reality, combined with an accurate perspective on the nature of individuality, and a healthy dose of compassion...) The key causes of suffering are greed/attachment, aversion, and delusion. Think about it: much of the debate here has included about how humans are intrinsically greedy. What if that was just a faulty cultural assumption? What if we could be better than that, and still be happy?

Mate, it'd take more than 2 years to get 50% of the country to start considering there's a problem. A large proportion of them won't even acknowledge there's a problem to start with.

Now there you are spot on. NZ in particular has not for some time had the facility to have anything like an honest debate about our circumstances, let alone the true state of the world.

[Winston001]

Sorry, I was meaning in NZ...

The world is shit. We are capable of changing that in the blink of an eye imho.

We can't embrace the sort of changes you are talking about just in NZ. It has to be the world.

Speaking of which, I think the world is great. Full of interesting people, enthralling experiences, stunning geography, delicious food. The kindest and most open people I have encountered in my life have been in Third World countries. Specifically the Sudan and India. People lived on $5/day hand to mouth but still smiled and had a kind word to say. In fact these people were so generous I was humbled.

Lets not underestimate the human spirit. The world is amazing and wonderful.

[Mental Trousers]

Is that even true, globally, and if so is it sustainable? I think there has been some improvement in some places, but I'm not sure you can claim "much higher". Besides in numbers, not proportions, the number keeps going up. 1.4m people below $1.25 a day and a squeeze on the middle class. Wealth is being concentrated at the top, and that's accelerating. Plus we're about to be dealt a dose of old-fashioned energy deprivation upside the head, which has an adverse effect on economic progress... and people tend not to be at the sharing best when times are tight.

India and China are the 2 most populous countries in the world. Both of them are gradually hauling themselves away from subsistence living. By no means are they there yet, but they're definitely moving that way. As they do, more and more of their people are living in better conditions.

There are statistics out there, but the only thing you can rely on with statistics is that somebody is pushing their own wheel barrow and representing their view point with them.

Like Capitalism?

As I've said, they'll all fail, including Capitalism. Thing is, we haven't seen the best or worst of Capitalism yet so it's a fair way to go before it's done. I'll be interested to see how closely Capitalism and Democracy are linked though. Could be very difficult keeping one but not the other.

Hmmm. Problem with that is that it will take a very very large amount of energy (and political will, and a good bit of scientific advance) to organise anything faintly resembling a real space colonisation enterprise. And we don't feasibly have that - certainly not the energy, or the tech. I think we have to learn to make a go of this planet first before we go fuck up any others.

Yep. That was a tangent that mashman wanted a bit more information on and is a conversation for another thread. But at the moment you're not wrong. Humans evolving for a zero gravity environment is a long way off in our future.

Now there you are spot on. NZ in particular has not for some time had the facility to have anything like an honest debate about our circumstances, let alone the true state of the world.

Sad but true.

[mashman]

morning has broken and it would seem it found me in a similar condition .

We can't embrace the sort of changes you are talking about just in NZ. It has to be the world.

Speaking of which, I think the world is great. Full of interesting people, enthralling experiences, stunning geography, delicious food. The kindest and most open people I have encountered in my life have been in Third World countries. Specifically the Sudan and India. People lived on $5/day hand to mouth but still smiled and had a kind word to say. In fact these people were so generous I was humbled.

Lets not underestimate the human spirit. The world is amazing and wonderful.

I disagree on that. NZ doesn't create all of its own laws and doesn't implement all of it's own policies. Politicians spend vast amounts of time and money borrowing implementing what they think is the best of the bunch from around the world. It's shit. Someone always goes first. The NWO, if it ever happens, will still use this shit system to its own ends and billions will die because of it.

Sounds like you had some great times. Fuckin heartbreaking at the same time though ain't it. The fact that they're happy and smiling never truly sugar coated it for me, it just compounded my view of what the western world will do for a buck , what the western world is capable of and will allow to happen when pursuing its own agenda, under the banner of capitalism and beaurocracy. Who in their right mind votes for that shit? There are much better ways.

I'm not understimating the human spirit at all, well not all of it, quite the opposite ... hence why I believe that people are ready to consider a different way of living. Maybe NZ isn't the place, but it needs to be a western country that goes first. The world will argue about it for 50 years, or miss the point entirely. The people of a country will argue for under a year before a consensus is reached imho, potentially a lot less than that, especially in a "smaller" country.