General bitch (oops, I mean discussion) about bikers thread

[R-Soul]

Says who. This is my point. It is you who labeled him an idiot, when in fact, as i have already said, in another field he may well be a lot smarter than you and i. He also may be more unaware than we realize, due to less experience maybe,that he is actually the cause, still doesn't make him an idiot.
If all those that were less informed about something in life were to labeled an idiot, then there would be very little chance of them moving forward.

Wrong- to defend the undefendable (after it is shown to be indefendable by himself) - is idiotic.

[Edbear]

Familiarity can often breed complacency.

It can, certainly. In this case, this stretch of road is notorious for accidents, there were I think on average over 70 crashes that year just on that stretch alone, so I was driving accordingly. You know the drill, wet road after warm weather, slight off-camber, slightly bumpy, heavy traffic. I was being careful.

Ironically, was I driving a front wheel drive, like our Pulsar, the outcome would probably have been very different as it would simply have slid sideways into the curb, but being rear-drive, the back end slid left, facing me into oncoming traffic which I had to react very fast to avoid and it was the second spin to the left that put me square on to the curb while sliding sideways resulting in the roll once the wheels contacted the curb.

[Grubber]

In the interests of covering all the bases...


True, but we're not talking about that type of unawareness, are we?
No - we're talking about a different type of ignorance.

Oh jeez, make up ya mind.
Ignorance can come in shapes and forms. What you may call ignorant someone else may call being unaware. See my point?
When ya talk about this sort of thing you need to keep definitions simple and straight so there is no deviations.
Unaware would be my preferred lingo. It just covers a wider field.

[R-Soul]

Not at all, preach away. But I was driving a Toyota Estima van and could clearly see the road, just couldn't see the oil due to the wet conditions. The road was streaming with water and dark which very effectively disguised the oil. Also at less than 50km/h in traffic, to go any slower probably wouldn't have changed much but would have really frustrated following drivers trying to get to work as I was.

As I said, I drove that road daily to work and was very familiar with it and the traffic conditions on it. My vehicle had just passed a WoF three days before and everything was up to scratch. In the Police Serious Crash report they placed no blame on me or the vehicle.

I am not judging or allocating fault or blame - I am saying that in most cases, we accept a certain amount of risk (just by riding we do). And instead of allocating fault after the fact, we should focus on what we could have done to avoid it. And change our riding accordingly. And preferably learn from others experiences first.

For example - perhaps if you had spent some time on a skid pan, or in an advanced drivers course, you would have been better trained to control the slide.

Of course you can take this stuff to extremes - Risk is generally decided on two things: the probability of something happen, and teh consequences of that thing happening. When you think about it, the probability of things happening on the road is high (how many people are in accidnets yearly?) , and the consequences of that risk can be enormous (i.e. death). The human body is just not evolved to deal with the kind of energies that vehicles have. In fact, it is stupid NOT TO take precaution to extremes. Because we have been conditioned to accept risk in vehicles from our growing up in an era of no seat belts, no ABS, no airbags, etc doesn't necessarily mean that the risk we subject ourselves to daily is objectively reasonable. Ditto for our attitude to bikes.

[Edbear]

I am not judging or allocating fault or blame - I am saying that in most cases, we accept a certain amount of risk (just by riding we do). And instead of allocating fault after the fact, we should focus on what we could have done to avoid it. And change our riding accordingly. And preferably learn from others experiences first.

Absolutely. I've tried to think what I might have done differently, but can't really pick anything that woud have prevented it, save for being in a front wheel drive vehicle, but then there are circumstances where rear-drive would be better. I'm tempted to get a car like the Suzuki Kizashi Sport which has on-demand AWD.

We do have to balance risk each time we go out whether by bike or car and accept we are responsible for the way we ride/drive. We also need to accept that things may happen beyond our control and kill us anyway. That's why in my original posts about the accident I mentioned the irony of having an accident while doing everything right when one considers one's history.

[Katman]

No, they allocate fault (legal or moral) for the accident, but keep insisting that their standard of care was good enough, when clearly it was not. in this way, the justify not having to learn from the experience. This is the "victim" mentality. This is what is teh problem with most post- accident debriefings on KB.

We hear: "It was Mary Pajeros fault for turning in front of me".

Not: "I saw here at the side of the road, with her indicator on, and I should have seen the ten children scrambling over the seats in the back, which could have distracted her from seeing me".

We hear: "The stupid bitch was talking on her mobile, didnt see the red light until too late, and smashed into the back of my stationary bike, after sliding 40 meters up an uphill, and knocking me into the intersection." (true story)

We dont hear: " I should have kept an eye on car movements around me, and in gear, even when I was stationary, so that I might have been able to move to the side when I heard the car tyres screeching behind me".

I do it - we all do this - but we need to change that mentality and learn from each other.

That would have to be one of the most astute posts I've ever read on here.

[MSTRS:Me]

Oh jeez, make up ya mind.
Ignorance can come in shapes and forms. What you may call ignorant someone else may call being unaware. See my point?
When ya talk about this sort of thing you need to keep definitions simple and straight so there is no deviations.
Unaware would be my preferred lingo. It just covers a wider field.

If you truly don't know something (like what I mean) then you are ignorant (unknowing)
If you know all about something (like what I mean) but continue to act like you don't then you are ignorant (idiotic)

I see quite a difference between the two.

The jury is out on which one you are...

[skippa1]

No one on here, in those words exactly. They simply distill the salient point of what I've been wasting my time in trying to get through to you.
You'll find them under Action here

Ahhhhh, so now we get to the point. No one on here, no one, NO ONE. You are right you are wasting your time. You know why, because youre point, Km's points, are all based on what you have distilled from their comments. To quote someone that looks, smells and tastes all a bit like you.....
MSTRS - "Here we go again. Just like KM's posts, you read what I wrote, but you didn't comprehend it"

Pot.....meet the fuckin kettle

[MSTRS:Me]

Trying in a variety of ways to get my point across, even enlisting the assistance of someone else's words, only to have every attempt twisted or mocked, was almost a complete waste of time. The one thing it did achieve was highlight the ignorance that some are determined to display...
Mine - in thinking that I was talking to someone intelligent.
Yours - for proving you're not that someone.

[skippa1]

Trying in a variety of ways to get my point across, even enlisting the assistance of someone else's words, only to have every attempt twisted or mocked, was almost a complete waste of time. The one thing it did achieve was highlight the ignorance that some are determined to display...
Mine - in thinking that I was talking to someone intelligent.
Yours - for proving you're not that someone.

Ahhahahahaha.....you are doing exactly what you claim everyone else is doing ahahahahahahaha.......and you resort to a post like that .....................................

[Grubber]

Trying in a variety of ways to get my point across, even enlisting the assistance of someone else's words, only to have every attempt twisted or mocked, was almost a complete waste of time. The one thing it did achieve was highlight the ignorance that some are determined to display...
Mine - in thinking that I was talking to someone intelligent.
Yours - for proving you're not that someone.

Your a fuckwit.
Don't ever try and put yourself on a pedestal above me you retard. You are not and never will be any better than me.
I have listened to your dribble for the past day or 2 and it appears to me your just the type, if someone disagrees, then they are most definitely inferior to yourself.
Personally i have now had enough time wasted on your bollocks you stuck up little shit.
You should spend some time reading your rubbish and then stand back and take a good look in the mirror....jeez i can't believe the arrogance....oh and yea...didn't you mention that somehwere at one stage.

[Grubber]

If you truly don't know something (like what I mean) then you are ignorant (unknowing)
If you know all about something (like what I mean) but continue to act like you don't then you are ignorant (idiotic)

I see quite a difference between the two.

The jury is out on which one you are...

You forgot to mention those that know but choose not to. That's not ignorance, that's choice. It is not an "act" but a choice to refuse that path.

You may think you sound clever but alas your not.

[skippa1]

Your a fuckwit.
Don't ever try and put yourself on a pedestal above me you retard. You are not and never will be any better than me.
I have listened to your dribble for the past day or 2 and it appears to me your just the type, if someone disagrees, then they are most definitely inferior to yourself.
Personally i have now had enough time wasted on your bollocks you stuck up little shit.
You should spend some time reading your rubbish and then stand back and take a good look in the mirror....jeez i can't believe the arrogance....oh and yea...didn't you mention that somehwere at one stage.

I think I'm done now to. The whole thread is a wind up, designed for this to provoke debate and/or anger. They are all the same. They hide behind a keyboard making cowardly statements about others situations with not the slightest idea of what happened. Comments they would never make to your face. You notice that Katman ducks in and out throwing up on someones post then ducking out, leaving drones to fight in his corner. The funny thing is thay are so stupid, they think they are fighting his cause.......hes just here for the entertainment and wind up.
KM will come back and make some retarded comment to try and revive this thing MSTRS cant see that he is being whored by KM.

[MSTRS:Me]

Hey KM? Do you detect a note of desperation on the part of some here....

[Grubber]

I am not judging or allocating fault or blame - I am saying that in most cases, we accept a certain amount of risk (just by riding we do). And instead of allocating fault after the fact, we should focus on what we could have done to avoid it. And change our riding accordingly. And preferably learn from others experiences first.

For example - perhaps if you had spent some time on a skid pan, or in an advanced drivers course, you would have been better trained to control the slide.

Of course you can take this stuff to extremes - Risk is generally decided on two things: the probability of something happen, and teh consequences of that thing happening. When you think about it, the probability of things happening on the road is high (how many people are in accidnets yearly?) , and the consequences of that risk can be enormous (i.e. death). The human body is just not evolved to deal with the kind of energies that vehicles have. In fact, it is stupid NOT TO take precaution to extremes. Because we have been conditioned to accept risk in vehicles from our growing up in an era of no seat belts, no ABS, no airbags, etc doesn't necessarily mean that the risk we subject ourselves to daily is objectively reasonable. Ditto for our attitude to bikes.

There is plenty of truth in this. Personal choice plays a huge part also. The choice to ride slightly over and above our potential is up to the individual and not for others to judge. This is all about being individuals. It's not up to the rest of us to throw stones at everyone who takes a spill. I'm sure they don't go out there to do it on purpose.