Secret abortions for under 18s? Good shit.

**Flip** · 16th May 2011, 18:41

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 18:41

Originally Posted by Edbear

And how many abortions are performed at less than four weeks?

How many women even know they're pregnant at 4 weeks? As far as I'm aware 12 weeks is where the risk of NATURAL abortion (miscarriage) drops considerably.

Man this is an emotive topic.

**Ender EnZed** · 16th May 2011, 18:43

Originally Posted by Flip

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

What made you change your mind?

Originally Posted by Flip

To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

So you don't distinguish between foetus and embryo?

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 18:49

Originally Posted by Ender EnZed

Humans are animals too.

If your position is ultimately supported by religious beliefs rather than moral then any discussion of the latter isn't going to get far. However I won't raise it again.

The majority of abortions are performed during the embryonic stage of development. This is up to week 8.

So you're completely opposed to stem cell research and all the benefits it may hold if it has involved human embryos?

I am opposed to killing people especially in such a horrific manner! Forget religion this is a humanitarian issue and a moral one. You don't have to be in any way religious to understand the mechanics of what is going on. How about you actually answer the question I put to you? How do you feel when you read the facts?

In my opinion, doing this is abhorrent! How about commenting on the points I've raised instead of getting at me personally? Doesn't do anything for the discussion, does it?

Yes I am opposed to using embryo's for research as I do count them as human life. Stem cell research, if you've bothered keeping up with it does not require the killing of embryo's anymore, it can be done without that.

You still sound as though you feel that murder can be acceptable, even barbaric and patently cruel murder that would never be accepted in any other circumstance, on the basis of whether a baby is wanted or not.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:01

Originally Posted by Geeen

How many women even know they're pregnant at 4 weeks? As far as I'm aware 12 weeks is where the risk of NATURAL abortion (miscarriage) drops considerably.

Man this is an emotive topic.

It certainly is, and religion or no, I'm a human being with feelings for others and once I read what actually happens, I was disgusted and sick and became implacably opposed to the practice.

I have enormous sympathy for parents faced with extreme medical concerns over their unborn and feel for them in the anguish they feel at having to make a decision on the matter. This however, is different from what we are discussing here.

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 19:02

Its really about where the individual draws the line of when the embryo/foetus becomes a person in their own right. Is it when they gain a sense of self (higher brain functions) or the moment of inception. This is starting to drift away from the article in the OP, which was about Parents not being told of pregnancies or terminations by the school. I personally think Parents have a RIGHT to know but not sure if its the schools place to tell them. As a parent how would you react to a phone call from the principal along the lines of " Were you aware your daughter is pregnant and wanting to terminate the pregnacy" ? I dont think many would take it well.

**awayatc** · 16th May 2011, 19:15

Originally Posted by Flip

Well in my book Murder is Murder, a unborn human fetus has the right to a life just the same as you and I do. A few years ago I would have said other wise, I used to be very pro choice but these days I am right against abortion for any but the most serious medical reasons.

To me a human being exists from conception (is going to be a human) and continues through life (is a human being) past death to the end of time (was a human being). If it helps I believe a fetus is a developing human being and is entitled to the same protection under the law as you and I.

And into what will this unwanted "human" turn into....?
Hope for you that you will be spared a serious run in with a "saved" abortion candidate.
Headlines are full of them.........
Human embryos will only turn into decent humans when they are wanted and loved.

Far 2 few abortions as is.....

**rachprice** · 16th May 2011, 19:18

Originally Posted by Edbear

Like, what else is it..? You too, read the facts again and tell us how it makes you feel.

What you have presented is so far from 'fact', more extremely biased and one-sided to suit your view. There are many things wrong with abortion but because it is so emotionally charged both sides are extremely narrow minded about the other side

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:18

Originally Posted by awayatc

And into what will this unwanted "human" turn into....?
Hope for you that you will be spared a serious run in with a "saved" abortion candidate.
Headlines are full of them.........
Human embryos will only turn into decent humans when they are wanted and loved.

Far 2 few abortions as is.....

Have you read how it's performed? Read that and tell us how it makes you feel.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:21

Originally Posted by rachprice

What you have presented is so far from 'fact', more extremely biased and one-sided worded to suit your view. There are many things wrong with abortion but because it is so emotionally charged both sides are extremely narrow minded about the other side

These are not facts?

Suction Aspiration. A suction curette (hollow tube with sharp-edged tip) is inserted into the womb, and suction 28 times stronger than that of a vacuum cleaner shreds the baby and draws the pieces into a container. This method is used in most abortions up to the 12th week. By then the child is completely formed and sensitive to pain.

Dilation and Curettage (D & C). Similar to the suction method, except for the insertion of a loop-shaped knife that dismembers the baby and scrapes the pieces out through the womb opening.

Saline Solution. Fluid is drawn out of the amniotic sac where the baby is and a concentrated salt solution injected in its place. The baby breathes and swallows the solution, struggles, haemorrhages, goes into convulsions, and in a few hours dies. Thereafter the mother goes into hard labour and delivers a dead or dying baby. This method is used in advanced pregnancies, four to six months.

Prostaglandin Abortion. Birth hormones are injected into the amniotic sac to induce premature birth. Salt is often injected first to prevent live births.

Hysterotomy. Similar to a caesarean section. The abdomen and womb are opened surgically and the baby is removed. Nearly all these babies are lifted out alive, struggle for a while, cry and die. Used in very late abortions, when premature births could survive.

**superman** · 16th May 2011, 19:26

Originally Posted by Geeen

Its really about where the individual draws the line of when the embryo/foetus becomes a person in their own right. Is it when they gain a sense of self (higher brain functions) or the moment of inception. This is starting to drift away from the article in the OP, which was about Parents not being told of pregnancies or terminations by the school. I personally think Parents have a RIGHT to know but not sure if its the schools place to tell them. As a parent how would you react to a phone call from the principal along the lines of " Were you aware your daughter is pregnant and wanting to terminate the pregnacy" ? I dont think many would take it well.

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:32

For those who don't know how to Google...

http://www.abortion.gen.nz/procedures/index.html
http://www.americanpregnancy.org/unp...rocedures.html

So far no-one has said how reading the facts of the procedure has affected them. Or commented on the legal anomolies I've pointed out.

**Edbear** · 16th May 2011, 19:37

Originally Posted by superman

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

While it would be nice and the ideal for people to be allowed to "mature" based on individual maturity and capability, you can't legislate for that. Parental upbringing has such a wide variety of effects that one person may be mature and responsible well before another, but how do you make laws for that?

**Geeen** · 16th May 2011, 19:43

Originally Posted by superman

Yes, it really gets into all sorts of freedom of thought arguments, free will to choose what one wants when under the age of 18. So obviously parents agree that it's ok for the daughter to not require parental consent for an abortion/be required by law to tell the parents if an abortion is taking place when they are over 18?

Now why do parents suddenly find it okay for the teenager to be free from parental consent at 18? Really it's completely culturally caused, as that is just what is expected. It's nothing to do with a sudden gain in mental capacity, or a sudden maturity. Why was my political view at 16 not valid in an election? Because of a culturally based law, not because I couldn't make a decision on which party would be the best to run our country based on economic/socioeconomic values.

Society is just plain built against the thought of those under 18 having any sort of impact directly into society. As women once were oppressed directly by law for the same reasons, those under 18 still are.

Kind of. Thats getting into "at what age are you Legally an Adult". Different can of worms, right next to this on the shelf though.

Christianity has had 2000 odd years to influence Western society so its built into our morality irrespective of whether you are God fearing (WEIRD phrase) or not. At one time a child was not considered human in Japan untill reaching 2 years old. This was reflective of the high infant mortality rate of the time. So, Yes, societal trends do influence morality.