New road safety measures

[Katman]

It may seem a ridiculous example but most cases speeding are no more dangerous than having a second glass of water.

How many deaths do you think can be attributed to excessive speed as compared to drinking too much water?

[oneofsix]

How many deaths do you think can be attributed to excessive speed as compared to drinking too much water?

from 1 glass about the same number that die from doing 5k over the speed limit on straight motorways. Water is dangerous!

[Virago]

How many deaths do you think can be attributed to excessive speed as compared to drinking too much water?

On average 105 NZers die each year as the result of too much water...

[Ocean1]

On average 105 NZers die each year as the result of too much water...

Fuckers are drinking that shit too fast.

[swbarnett]

How many deaths do you think can be attributed to excessive speed as compared to drinking too much water?

I'm not talking about excessive speed. On this I agree with you. I'm talking about speed above the legal limit that is not excessive for the conditions.

[MrKiwi]

Setting the speed limits is an exercise in average tolerance levels, or should be. No matter where you set it there are times where some can go faster safely. That does not negate the sensibility of setting speed limits.

However, speed limits are now being set to low in many areas, I get the feeling they are being set for the lowest common denominator - that's not good. Dumbing us down far too much.

I get damn confused driving through urban areas these days and with open road speeds. We have speed limits at 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90 and 100km/hr. And some towns/cities use all these. How damn confusing is that

[MrKiwi]

Fuckers are drinking that shit too fast.

for shame, for shame. Way too fast

[swbarnett]

Setting the speed limits is an exercise in average tolerance levels, or should be. No matter where you set it there are times where some can go faster safely. That does not negate the sensibility of setting speed limits.

However, speed limits are now being set to low in many areas, I get the feeling they are being set for the lowest common denominator - that's not good. Dumbing us down far too much.

If a speed limit is set such that an "average" driver can drive safely at that speed then it is also true that some drivers cannot drive safely at that speed. This is the definition of an average.

Speed limits today are seen as a magic bullet. Under them you are safe, over them you probably aren't. This is bollox IMO but does explain the low setting that you mention.

At least on the open road, speed limits are counter to road safety. I say remove them completely and rely on the charges of dangerous or careless driving where it is deemed the speed is excessive for the conditions. Or better yet, just leave people alone and throw the book at anyone deemed to have caused an accident due to excessive speed.

[James Deuce]

That all sounds fine to me.



Call it personal responsibility - being responsible for accidents you are involved in. Making motorcycle riders better will result in them being involved in less accidents.

No it won't. They still won't see you, they'll still pull out of intersections without looking, drunk, with headlights off at 9:30pm, they'll still back out of driveways without looking, they'll still change lanes without looking, they'll still regard the centre line as optional, they'll still let teenagers in the throes of massive brain development drive cars, they'll still think that opening car doors on lane splitting bikes is acceptable, farmers will still let stock wander unsupervised and drive combine harvesters onto the road without looking, truck drivers will still spread effluent and diesel, old people who struggle to see to the end of their 3 metre driveway will still be allowed licenses, and roads will still be left to rot until they're poorly repaired.

But most of all the motorcyclists already with license in hand will still think they're impervious to all of the above (and the myriad other risks out there) and continue to ignore the centre line, speed limit, courtesy, and common sense and maintain that fatality and injury rate.

Worst of all though, these new measures simply shift the responsibility for accidents and deaths onto motorcyclists solely. "We trained them better but they still crash and burn."

Anyone who doesn't think this isn't a cynical ploy to develop a PR strategy to make motorcyclists culpable for everything bad that happens to them is an idiot. Steven Joyce doesn't give a crap about you personally or your hobbies or mode of transport. They can drop the road toll by 30-40 a year by banning bikes. That's an easy gain in the face of a plateaued road toll that's only improving (possibly) because petrol is too expensive to let people do anything except one shop a week and to and from the train station.

The other cynical result of this will be making it prohibitively expensive for the young uns to get involved in motorcycling as transport. Too dangerous so we'll make rego expensive and training drawn out and very expensive. Junior will go by an R32 Skyline instead and chop the springs and run little kids over on the footpath.

Where's MAG and BRONZ?

[Blackbird]

Making motorcycle riders better will result in them being involved in less accidents.

No it won't. They still won't see you,

Still a cantankerous old bastard then Jim?

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, I can't agree with you overall. When I recently asked on the forum who among "experienced" motorcyclists had voluntarily attended a re-skilling/upskilling course in the last couple of years, there were precious few positive responses. That appears to support your contention that an awful lot of riders think they've nothing to learn.

The bit I don't agree with is that making riders better won't have any effect. There will still be other idiots on the road but improving your road positioning and situational awareness significantly reduces risk. I've started the IAM Advanced Observer (Instructor) course mainly for my own upskilling but also to voluntarily put back something back into motorcycling. I'm only part way through it but I can honestly say that my riding to survive has improved immensely.

Sorry to be blunt, but you make it sound like the whole thing is a lost cause but there's plenty that riders can do to help themselves if some of them were less complacent.

[James Deuce]

Sorry to be blunt, but you make it sound like the whole thing is a lost cause but there's plenty that riders can do to help themselves if some of them were less complacent.

It is a lost cause. Those that participate in IAM style training courses are generally speaking old cantankerous bastards and very few in number. There isn't any way to make the RoSPA medal system or IAM gradings attractive to people under 50 unless they're a bit odd to begin with.

There's a group of people that view advanced training as a good thing (I'm one of them) but they're at one end of a bell curve, and then there's a group who think that being able to go around corners really, really fast (superior bike handling skills) is a panacea for all potential problems, but they're at the other end of the curve.

The big bulge in the middle is exactly the same as their car driving counterparts - secure in the knowledge that they're "above average drivers/riders" and they don't need their skills reviewed or habits modified. How you engage the complacent people in the middle is something that has escaped the attention of TPTB - Deliberately, because if you tell someone they suck at driving you may lose votes. The Police perspective is interesting. They claim advanced rider/driver training just means that crashes happen at higher speed. So how do you not only engage the average complacent Harley riding lawyer AND the Police AND TPTB in a way that sells rider and driver training for all, but also make it a core part of an education system?

I don't think you can and I just think undertaking advanced skills training of any sort for motorcyclists just means you'll be highly trained and skilled as well as injured, maimed, or dead when one of the complacent morons who hasn't used his indicator for 30 years to change lanes on a motorway finally SMIDSY's you.

[MSTRS:Me]

The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.
-Herbert Spencer, English Philosopher (1820-1903)

[Blackbird]

It is a lost cause.

It sounds like life itself is a lost cause to you and I'm sorry if that is the case.

Let's square a few things away.... I'd have taken RoSPA because of the graded system but as there wasn't one in NZ, IAM was still an excellent choice as opposed to doing fuck-all and whinging. What drove me in this direction was that I am/was one of those average people in the middle you talk about but as I'm well over 60 and want to prolong my riding career, upskilling is one contributing factor. You know what they say about insanity... doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. And I know at least 2 other "middle ground" people who are also refreshing and upskilling because I'm doing it. Not a bad result actually and I wasn't even trying to convert anyone

I'd like to see where the police claim that training causes higher speed accidents, especially as IAM is based on their training methods. I won't comment about the average Harley rider.

I still think you're missing the point though about roadcraft training (as opposed to trackdays). Raising situational awareness through proper training reduces the risk of getting involved in an accident, whether it be avoiding a moronic car driver or a Gixxer squid who is riding inappropriately for the conditions.

[MrKiwi]

Well I for one don't think it is a lost cause and I for one do not think they can ever, nor will they ever want to, ban motorcyclists from our roads.

Sure there are a lot of risks with stupid idiosyncratic egotistical tin top drivers and their propensity to think and drive like the road is their own (unless there are other vehicles around that is bigger than theirs).

But there is also a lot to be said for us riders upskilling ourselves and riding within our limits.

With fuel prices increasing I predict motorbike/scooter sales will increase again. We're here to stay and the road is ours too.

[scumdog]

It is a lost cause.

Ah well, enjoy your riding while you still can...



(And I guess there will be shit-loads of cheap bikes for sale soon then eh?)