The welfare state

[mashman]

It stands for Repairs and Maintenance, and any company that needed to ask money ‎from shareholders for this is not long for this world.‎ Your comments are indicative of your tenuous grasp on this subject (not to mention your tenuous grasp on reality).‎

I think you were referring to Capital Investment and Research, and I don’t recall any ‎SOE ever having to ask the Govt. for money to fund this.‎

@tenuous on the subject of SOE and its dealings with govt... you flatter me. (my grasp on reality is fine thanks)

I wonder if the govt just offer, instead of waiting to be asked (that is a joke :shifty)

[The Stranger:Me]

waaaaaaa ha ha ha ha aaaaaaaaaa stop it please...

My apologies, I hadn't meant to trigger another psychotic episode by enquiring into which of the several possible humorous interpretations of the statement you found mirth in.
Please resume your meds.

[BoristheBiter]

My apologies, I hadn't meant to trigger another psychotic episode by enquiring into which of the several possible humorous interpretations of the statement you found mirth in.
Please resume your meds.

The sad thing is I don't think he is on any.

[mashman]

My apologies, I hadn't meant to trigger another psychotic episode by enquiring into which of the several possible humorous interpretations of the statement you found mirth in.
Please resume your meds.

I'm sorry... your original post made me laugh... the reason tends to do that to me ... and I wasn't sure which way to take your post. I'm sure you have a point to prove. But...

Let me start by saying in so many different ways (the more I read it, waaaa ha ha haaaaaa)

Primarily from the status quo point of view. It's ok. Money fixed the system last time we had a tinker .
Then...
"Helps people into paid jobs and protects our most vulnerable". At last, someone who has figured out how to fix it.
"The independent Welfare Working Group's recent report shows our welfare system isn't working as well as it could." No shit... the mans a genius.
"We have to do better for hardworking taxpayers, for beneficiaries who are falling far short of their potential, and for children growing up in welfare-dependent households." Make more money, save more money and think happy happy thoughts. The beneficiaries really want our lifestyle, they just don't know it yet.
"Long-term welfare dependency robs people of confidence, motivation and aspiration. Ultimately it can rob their children of these things, too.". Ok, so there's not a lot to laugh at there... other than telling dependents that long-term welfare will utterly destroy the person that they are.
"This Government is not prepared to leave this large group of New Zealanders behind. I'm ambitious for what we can achieve in this area, and I look forward to announcing our welfare reform policies before the election" ... aaaaaaaand curtain ... what a rousing finale... it just takes yer breath away doesn't it.

I've heard that kind of "statement" a few times before, but MANY different guises... Noble thoughts, Zero intention. It smacks of, Dear Voters ... Pick ME, ME, ME, I want the same things as you do too...

The fix for welfare reform. Move money from here, over there and take that money from there and move it over here... yeah, that looks about right. sorted

If I didn't laugh. I'd cry.

[mashman]

The sad thing is I don't think he is on any.

you're such a bitch

[BoristheBiter]

you're such a bitch

To know me is to love me

[mashman]

To know me is to love me

divine beauty?

[BoristheBiter]

divine beauty?

You do know me well.



Oops ...sorry i thought you said bovine.

[Smifffy]

Typical. WTF do SOEs etc have to do with lazy people too tired to get off their couches and go do something other than xbox for a living, other than the fact that the rest of us are propping them up too?

[rainman]

So now you're in government and have this great idea. What are you going to do to achieve these goals?

Firstly, me being in government is your biggest nightmare, I would think. Fortunately I have a healthy cupboard full of skeletons, so to speak, and would never get anywhere close to being elected.

Secondly, I don't think government exists to address most of the issues I have raised. Most of them are cultural, and although government can certainly affect that, it's not their main job. Sure government is a useful bully pulpit to preach from, but change has to come from within. Almost none of them an be fixed, anyway, but if I had a play at governing? I'd start by significantly increasing our dose of vision - something that has been sorely lacking in this land for quite some time. Get 'em by the hearts and their hands and feet will follow, I say...

The main part of this would have to be building more of a sense of unity in the country - less us and them, more we're in it together (see below). Bit of national pride, identity and belonging, perhaps like existed in the good old days, or can be found in our neighbours to the west (although we don't actually seem to like that about them too much). That delivers both ways - more wanting to participate in OUR society, more willing to help those of US fallen on hard times, less willing to bludge off the rest of US. Yes of course this isn't a silver bullet but there isn't one - social change is lots of little nudges. Oh, I might have to restructure the media.

Some stick with the carrot - public sanction for the obvious frauds, which I hold are easy to find and make examples of, but both at the bottom of the scale as well as the top. I'd make it clear that benefit crookery would be as little tolerated as tax dodging. But that's not remotely the main task at hand, building self-reliance is - not only as individuals, although that helps, but as communities, and as a nation overall.

Tax and economic policy? I'd be strongly inclined towards a less globalist approach and would reward local production as my preferred way of making jobs. I don't know in a WTO-driven world how much progress one could make to unwinding all of the globalised free trade crap, but I'd give it a go. I'd be keen to nationalise all of the shit we sold off shore, particularly banking ("Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" as the old quote goes), but we might need an army for that. Maybe default on debts, fuck the ratings agencies..I'd disincentivise large cities, incentivise net local (useful) production and local shipping. Reward Kiwi made and kiwi consumed. Grow our domestic markets and refocus global trade. Globalism hollows local economies, we need to rebuild our centre before we get to be a bunch of poor people with high living costs (Oops!),

Kinda Great Leap Backwards, with a twist of Bolivarian revolution.

Of course, all of that won't happen, and we're too small and powerless to force this change even if we wanted to, so it's irrelevant too. Also, it it's not an easy solution because there is no easy solution..

Thirdly, my view of the future and yours (if not, certainly of most people) are probably worlds apart, and without some things agreed you are unlikely to see any sense in any solutions I advance. I hold we're about to fall into a set of circumstances which the world has never seen before - yes, I am explicitly claiming that these are unique and extraordinary times - and we are extremely ill-prepared. It's too late to fix now though, and some bits of the future are just going to suck. Those that don't hurt, that is.

In particular, oil depletion, high food prices, and financial woes (how long before we stop talking about recession, I wonder) are here to stay, and for a long time. The world has fundamentally changed, we're a bit like Wile E Coyote and have run off the cliff, but have not figured it out yet.

The good outcome is we have a big crash, it shakes us and the rest of the planet up a little, and while everyone's attention is diverted we get on with sorting shit out, and can stop being an underperforming little island nation which half the world couldn't find on a map if you held hot coals under their feet. The only people who care about us are the one we owe money to,

The bad outcome is things don't crash but slowly decline, and we "enjoy" a period of Greek-style IMF medicine (but without the rioting, we're too domesticated for that) before things get worse for everyone again, and worser for us. We've always been the beta testing ground for the world, maybe we'll be both first to see the sun, and first to see the dark times.

And no, I don't see a feasible "Business As Usual" growth scenario in my lifetime - which is why even if your scheme did somehow magically create more companies and jobs I'd be interested to see what you think they would produce. Knowledge economy, gaming and entertainment or similar? They're over.Unspecified next big thing? Spare me the magical thinking. Green economy? A bit too late. May be some minor progress for a while here and there, but the long term trend overall is inexorable decline.

Good thing I'd never be elected, eh?

[Winston001]

I'd start by significantly increasing our dose of vision - something that has been sorely lacking in this land for quite some time. Get 'em by the hearts and their hands and feet will follow, I say...

The main part of this would have to be building more of a sense of unity in the country - less us and them, more we're in it together .

I hold we're about to fall into a set of circumstances which the world has never seen before - yes, I am explicitly claiming that these are unique and extraordinary times - and we are extremely ill-prepared. .

In particular, oil depletion, high food prices, and financial woes (how long before we stop talking about recession, I wonder) are here to stay, and for a long time. The world has fundamentally changed.

...even if your scheme did somehow magically create more companies and jobs I'd be interested to see what you think they would produce. Knowledge economy, gaming and entertainment or similar? They're over.Unspecified next big thing?

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't have such a dystopian view of the future.

NZ is a rare country. Geographically isolated from war, invasion, and disease. Spacious with a low population and a temperate climate. A stable nation with first world education, healthcare, and infrastructure.

The world is facing unique risks. Overpopulation. Collapse of the biosphere. Evaporation of cheap energy. Disappearance of clean water.

Historically when these things happened there were new lands to settle. Not any more.

Still, at a primary level we create food. And we have plenty of water. NZ is a paradise for most of humanity. What we need are more frigates!

[Ocean1]

One of the earlier Hellenisms was her quashing of the extended ANZUS frigate deal. At the request of several NZ comercial elements the Aussie government countered with the reinstatement of the supply contract in exchange for contracts for NZ's supply of smaller naval craft for the Aussie navy. They offered help in developing that capacity, although I reckon we were then better boatbuilders than them anyway.

What was actually on offer was not just a job building boats, it was an industry potentially worth more to NZ than Tenex, (the Aussie frigate builders). We were to become the one of the worlds principal boatbuiulding assets for both naval and commercial markets.

One of the interested parties above had already invested considerable resources in preperation for converting a stretch of the Seaview, (Lower Hutt) foreshore into high-tech shipping yard.

She turned it down.

[racefactory]

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't have such a dystopian view of the future.

NZ is a rare country. Geographically isolated from war, invasion, and disease. Spacious with a low population and a temperate climate. A stable nation with first world education, healthcare, and infrastructure.

The world is facing unique risks. Overpopulation. Collapse of the biosphere. Evaporation of cheap energy. Disappearance of clean water.

Historically when these things happened there were new lands to settle. Not any more.

Still, at a primary level we create food. And we have plenty of water. NZ is a paradise for most of humanity. What we need are more frigates!

Exactly why given the coming times ahead I would rather be here than anywhere else in the world. Too isolated for mass desperate refugees to reach, sustainable population, plenty of land with ability to feed the nation and most importantly- WATER! I just bloody hope the rest of the world doesn't wake up and see this too soon... we need defenses first.

[rainman]

I agree with much of what you say, but I don't have such a dystopian view of the future.

NZ is a rare country. Geographically isolated from war, invasion, and disease. Spacious with a low population and a temperate climate. A stable nation with first world education, healthcare, and infrastructure.

The world is facing unique risks. Overpopulation. Collapse of the biosphere. Evaporation of cheap energy. Disappearance of clean water.

Historically when these things happened there were new lands to settle. Not any more.

Still, at a primary level we create food. And we have plenty of water. NZ is a paradise for most of humanity. What we need are more frigates!

Sounds awfully like "she'll be right" to me. Is this belief in NZ exceptionalism what we were sold to sweeten the rape and pillage of the 80's, or does it predate that? Either way it is much more untrue than it is true.

Geographically isolated is a real mixed blessing, but I think limited market access outweighs the distance from war element - you can bring war anywhere (although with NZ, why would you bother? We could be invaded in an afternoon by anyone with a smidgen of competence).
Population density: low, but that really just means high infrastructure costs. Heaps of countries are within their carrying capacity, we're not unique there. Has potential if we were culturally aligned to have some Do It Ourselves/Buy Kiwi Made national pride, of course.
Stable: yeah, I suppose. I'd say catatonically apathetic, but that's just semantics. We're too polite to riot, rather just have a good bitch about each other to feel better. What has been our response to being rogered by the left and the right in he 80's and 90's? We voted in MMP (that'll send the buggers a message), and we feel vaguely disappointed and betrayed by politicians. Ho hum.
And we much prefer to bicker like children about bludgers of one shade or another* than get on with sorting the real issues.
Education, healthcare, infrastructure (except roads): sure, they are good by comparison to some, but if we can't afford to maintain them, or increasingly to access them, what good is that? The trajectory there is downward too, I'm afraid - public healthcare is under threat, and the right hates the education system and always tries to undermine it. Earthquakes don't help either. And the more we privatise the worse it gets - foreign owners don't deliver social goods unless they have to, or an make a buck doing so. Connect the dots.

Also, with globalisation it matters not a whit how wonderful NZ is. If your prices (food and commodities) are set globally, and your markets are completely open, then if you want a decent standard of living you have earn one by producing valuable goods and services (rather than borrowing). This is where geography bites us and will do so more in the near future, as it gets harder to get to our markets. If our wages (share of earnings) drop further then we lose more access to our own assets, and become even more tenants than owners. And I don't think we can unscramble the egg and put up isolation measures to undo the mess wrought by Roger Sociopath Douglas and his mates. No-one has the balls, for one thing. And as you point out, we don't have the frigates.

This is why I get grumpy when people like The Stranger trot out simplistic tax remedies to fix all our woes: 1) doesn't recognise present reality, and 2) we tried that already and it fucked the place over wholesale. Not learning from your mistakes in these circumstances is exceptional. Exceptional stupidity, that is.

One of the earlier Hellenisms was her quashing of the extended ANZUS frigate deal.

Sounds like a mistake, and was maybe even driven by guns-are-bad-mmmkay ideology. But why has no-one done anything to find an equivalent opportunity since? If we have exceptionally good boat builders why aren't we building frigates for the Koreans, or Somalis, or whoever? If we have all these assets why are we not using them to get a return for the country?

Why can't we even compete when it comes to building a few trains?


* Speaking of bludgers, did you see that one of the Property Developer Dave Henderson's currently going bankrupt has paid a total of $17,000 in taxes over about the last 16 years? By comparison even Daryl Harris is an amateur bludger. Betcha he doesn't get any public outrage, though.

[avgas]

Capital Investment and Research, and I don’t recall any ‎SOE ever having to ask the Govt. for money to fund this.‎

- Meridian
- Delta
- Orion
- Vector
- Watercare
- NZP
- WINZ...pretty much if you find me a SOE or Govt Enterprise, I will find the funding.
(note not all SOE's).
They usually put it under the pseudonym "Program" or "Scholarship", but essentially broke down to funding for what you have requested.
Not saying its bad though - I mean hell I would rather someone found a way to generate clean power than to fund some moron playing PS3.