The welfare state

[avgas]

If we have exceptionally good boat builders why aren't we building frigates for the Koreans, or Somalis, or whoever? If we have all these assets why are we not using them to get a return for the country?

We are building small defense ships for use in CoastGuards. But essentially the problem with boatbuilding is distance. You can't just chuck a boat in a container and send it overseas. Which is why our frigates were made in Australian even though half the gear came from US or Europe.

Why can't we even compete when it comes to building a few trains?

Because we can't compete against the like of Siemens without a trainyard with the balance of Fonterra.
Bottom line counts here, the big boys can setup a village in the middle of nowhere, build a rail system then packup cheaper than we can build in NZ and ship out.

[rainman]

We are building small defense ships for use in CoastGuards. But essentially the problem with boatbuilding is distance. You can't just chuck a boat in a container and send it overseas. Which is why our frigates were made in Australian even though half the gear came from US or Europe.

Bottom line counts here, the big boys can setup a village in the middle of nowhere, build a rail system then packup cheaper than we can build in NZ and ship out.

Exactly, thank you. None of that gets easier in an oil-constrained world, and we're unlikely to increase in scale significantly.

[Ocean1]

Sounds like a mistake, and was maybe even driven by guns-are-bad-mmmkay ideology.

Exactly correct.

But why has no-one done anything to find an equivalent opportunity since? If we have exceptionally good boat builders why aren't we building frigates for the Koreans, or Somalis, or whoever? If we have all these assets why are we not using them to get a return for the country?

Not Frigates, patrol craft and smaller.

And it's a chicken / egg thing. If you had the work you'd have the capacity and vic versa. That contract would have funded the asset build at Seaview.

You get a signature on any roughly equivalent contract tomorrow, I'll introduce you to the guys who can build the infrastructure and we'd be in business next week.

Why can't we even compete when it comes to building a few trains?

Slightly different proposition. To quote a recent conversation, "Kiwirail see their business as freight, not engineering". So Wellington's Matangis were built in Korea, rather than Woburn.

I rather think they don't know their business all that well, but what the fuck would I know, I'm an engineer.

[rainman]

And it's a chicken / egg thing. If you had the work you'd have the capacity and vic versa.

S'funny logic that. Customer of mine once tried to tell me he'd love to do business with me, but I'd have to have had the right number of people on the payroll for the right length of time in offices at the right address. Didn't matter if I could do the work he needed then and there, better than others. Small-minded bloke, but hey, there's a lot of it out there. One of the things that holds us back.

A lot of business in the real world gets sold on potential rather than actual capability, but based on either keen pricing or a demonstrable historical ability to get shit done. If we're not closing the deals then either we're too dear, don't have the history, or there's some other reason (no-one's selling it?) for why prospective customers don't have faith in us. What is holding us back from being an engineering powerhouse (OK, a small one), employing relative hordes and solving our welfare problem? I'm fairly sure it isn't excessive company tax.

For that matter why aren't we out there buying up big chunks of the "lesser" countries' industry, running it better and making shitloads of cash to feed back into developing capability back home? I think we have a rather inflated opinion of our capability relative to that held by our customers. Which is another reason why a fully open market etc was and is a dumb idea.

[Ocean1]

Customer of mine once tried to tell me...

That dude that said "the customer is always right"? Was a dirty stinkin' know-nothin' customer.

What is holding us back from being an engineering powerhouse (OK, a small one), employing relative hordes and solving our welfare problem? I'm fairly sure it isn't excessive company tax.

Best guess? Lack of cohesive marketing and inflexible labour laws.

I think we have a rather inflated opinion of our capability relative to that held by our customers.

Hasn't been my experience. Invariably I find most Kiwi engineering based industry to be genuinely innovative. I've a few stories about how the rest of the world see us...

One of North America's largest tractor manufacturers pulled their flagship model from the showrooms two years into it's six year product life because a Kiwi supplier had been shut down by it's UK head office. With the capital backing of one of the worlds biggies behind them none of that multi-national's twenty odd alternative plants could supply the parts. At any price or any lead time. That was one of about 20 overseas product lines so affected. You know what that must have cost. In that industry the loss of that NZ plant is seen as a major fuck up.

Helps us now not a jot, of course. How is it that invariably those who make descisions regarding capital don't seem to be able to see the woods for the trees?

[Winston001]

reason (no-one's selling it?) for why prospective customers don't have faith in us. What is holding us back from being an engineering powerhouse (OK, a small one), employing relative hordes and solving our welfare problem?

For that matter why aren't we out there buying up big chunks of the "lesser" countries' industry...

From my short visit to Malaysia I can't see why anybody would contract engineering to a distant place like NZ. Those guys are switched on, dedicated, accurate, high quality, and half our price.

Plus this type of economy is closed: NZ investors thinking they could take over would get a shock.

[rainman]

inflexible labour laws.

What specifically would you change? What substance there is in the reflexive and regular complaints about labour laws in NZ is surely at the lower end of the skill spectrum - giving people a chance but not being able to easily move them on if they turn out to be hopeless. That's been addressed (whether fairly or not is the matter for another thread) by the 90 day fire-at-will laws. There's basically no reason but managerial incompetence for employment problems now - and even so, the process for fixing issues is really not onerous; I've done it several times (most resulting in the person staying and performing, others ending in separation). All you are required to do is treat people with some basic dignity and fairness. Y'know, as you would have them do unto you, were the boot on the other foot.

Plus this type of economy is closed: NZ investors thinking they could take over would get a shock.

There's a point I'd neglected. So why do we almost completely open our economy to foreign ownership, when the favour mostly isn't returned? I have to ask: are we just terminally stupid?

[Ocean1]

Those guys are switched on, dedicated, accurate, high quality, and half our price.

Then why do they hire me as a consultant?

They have a management class that seems well competent, but they're light on technical developpment skills, (more a cultural thing than a lack of training) and while the labour is relatively cheap it's extremely intractible. On any given workday I'd have at least 10% of the staff on leave for one religeous reason or another.

Plus this type of economy is closed: NZ investors thinking they could take over would get a shock.

True. They're a large country, which equals a large potential market, which equals a lot of political clout wrt trade agreements.

[Ocean1]

What specifically would you change? What substance there is in the reflexive and regular complaints about labour laws in NZ is surely at the lower end of the skill spectrum - giving people a chance but not being able to easily move them on if they turn out to be hopeless. That's been addressed (whether fairly or not is the matter for another thread) by the 90 day fire-at-will laws. There's basically no reason but managerial incompetence for employment problems now - and even so, the process for fixing issues is really not onerous; I've done it several times (most resulting in the person staying and performing, others ending in separation). All you are required to do is treat people with some basic dignity and fairness. Y'know, as you would have them do unto you, were the boot on the other foot.

P’raps you’re right, mebe it’s simply a peculiarly distinct culturally inbred incompetence in our collective management. Certainly many managers fail to identify their skilled staff as THE primary asset of their business. That’s not unique to NZ but it is endemic here. I don’t know how to fix that, if decades of having our most highly trained techies fuck off overseas for better offers leaving the unskilled and a largely poorly trained management class behind doesn’t give ‘em a clue I’m fucked if I know what will.


Still. As you said, we're a small country, wrt export opportunities in particular our market penetration is sporadic. Our employment laws need to recognise that small companies, (over 90% of our economy) simply can’t absorb that risk alone and hope to survive. Companies can indeed more easily divest themselves of surplus “labour” when the belt needs tightening nowadays. The trouble is how to identify and retain the skill and experience required to develop the company's product through tight times. ‘Cause that's when you need them, not when you're simply filling orders in a good year.

The Auckland boatbuilding industry was held as a good example of how to do it, many small specialist companies supplying skills to the big yards, who then needed to simply focus on retaining the marketing and design focus.

[avgas]

From my short visit to Malaysia I can't see why anybody would contract engineering to a distant place like NZ. Those guys are switched on, dedicated, accurate, high quality, and half our price.

Yeah and No.
Seen some good ones and some bad ones. While the ratio is probably the same here - any good engineers go to Singapore. Where we send the same ratio of morons to Aus. So I suspect we 'hopefully' have a slightly higher ratio here of good engineers.

As for another comment here, about overseas firms buying up NZ ones. Has happened already. I still work for an NZ firm, 100% owned by my Singaporean oversears CSE-Global. Likewise the my previous group I worked (in Aus) for is now owned by Schneider. EDS is now owned by HP........ so they are buying all the smarts here too.

[mashman]

What is holding us back from being an engineering powerhouse (OK, a small one), employing relative hordes and solving our welfare problem? I'm fairly sure it isn't excessive company tax.

Easy. Money... but in light of the obvious copout there... Easy. Too many people in the wrong jobs for wrong reasons. How often do you hear, I would have stayed in the , but it didn't pay enough? That money thing "forces" people to make life decisions that they normally wouldn't. I've asked a few friends why they do what they do and very few do it for the "love" of the job... and just about all of them do it for the $$$ they can earn (shallow bastards ). So right people wrong job ranks right under money imho.

[SPman]

There's a point I'd neglected. So why do we almost completely open our economy to foreign ownership, when the favour mostly isn't returned? I have to ask: are we just terminally stupid?

Yes!

[scumdog]

There's a point I'd neglected. So why do we almost completely open our economy to foreign ownership, when the favour mostly isn't returned? I have to ask: are we just terminally stupid?

YUp, that's why we're selling lots of dairy cows to China at the moment..

[Winston001]

YUp, that's why we're selling lots of dairy cows to China at the moment..

Yeah? News to me Scummy. I'd have thought it was far simpler and cheaper to sell the semen than ship live animals. Got a link?

[FJRider]

YUp, that's why we're selling lots of dairy cows to China at the moment..

And I recall the sale of apple tree's to south-american countries ...