Benefits

[jonbuoy]

Where is your evidence that communism doesn't work .. given that there has never been a truly Communist country and Communism is only a stage in the progression from Capitalism to Socalism to Communism to the Dictatorship of the proletariat (unfortunate choice of Mr Marx for the final stage ...)

And which particular brand of Communism do you think will not work?

The brand of communism that says a brain surgeon should get paid the same as:

Someone who chooses not to work because they don´t feel like it.
An unproductive/useless worker
Hairdresser.

The brand of communism that says we are all equal and no-one should have any more than anyone else. We can´t all have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays. Some people have worked bloody hard to get what they have and made a lot of sacrifices. Why should someone else who has cruised through life have the same?

Two imaginary countries, call them A and B share a border.

Country A works under a communist system - all men are equal. Everyone gets paid the same, lives in a basic "peoples" house, drives a "peoples" car or rides a "peoples" bike, wears "peoples" clothes. There is no way to climb from where you are, it makes no difference to your standard of living how hard you study or work.

Country B works under a capitalist system like NZ has now, work/study hard and you will be rewarded. You can come from nothing and have the potential to be million/billionaire. In country B a hairdresser/butcher/builder/labourer can build up a small business, when they have enough business they can employ other people to work for them and be the "oppressive capitalist pig" or just a hardworking business minded worker.

The borders between the two countries are open - free travel between the two. In 50 years time what do you think is going to happen to the population?

[jonbuoy]

Who said that in a Communist society peole could not own stuff? The concept of priv ate property as theft is actually an anarchist one - yes I will concede that Anarchism is also known as "libertarian communism" ... but apart from frank Zappa .. where did you get that idea from ?

Because under a communist system everyone is the "same", we can´t all have everything we want. Some people will always work hard for more.

[Coolz]

Ever tried to buy a badly marketed product?

No,but I have bought bad products that have been excellently marketed! Thats why I dont buy the gubbermints philosophy that all our economic woes are the fault of the beneficiaries.

[mashman]

Dustbin men do a great job, its only people that choose not to work that are the problem.

only? So those who structure their affairs for the specific purpose of dodging their taxation obligations don't cause any problems?

The brand of communism that says we are all equal and no-one should have any more than anyone else. We can´t all have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays. Some people have worked bloody hard to get what they have and made a lot of sacrifices. Why should someone else who has cruised through life have the same?

and those who don't and have never worked, but have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays?

[jonbuoy]

only? So those who structure their affairs for the specific purpose of dodging their taxation obligations don't cause any problems?


and those who don't and have never worked, but have a yacht, a sportscar, a sportsbike, a nice big house, a beach bach, overseas holidays?

Are tax dodgers a drain on society? Which people that have never worked but have all this money are you talking about? Inheritance?

[mashman]

Two imaginary countries, call them A and B share a border.

Country A works under a communist system - all men are equal. Everyone gets paid the same, lives in a basic "peoples" house, drives a "peoples" car or rides a "peoples" bike, wears "peoples" clothes. There is no way to climb from where you are, it makes no difference to your standard of living how hard you study or work.

Country B works under a capitalist system like NZ has now, work/study hard and you will be rewarded. You can come from nothing and have the potential to be million/billionaire. In country B a hairdresser/butcher/builder/labourer can build up a small business, when they have enough business they can employ other people to work for them and be the "oppressive capitalist pig" or just a hardworking business minded worker.

The borders between the two countries are open - free travel between the two. In 50 years time what do you think is going to happen to the population?

Country A ticks along nicely, using what needs to be used to be as efficient as possible. Innovation is rife as there are no budget constraints and noone has a chip on their shoulder because they're pretty much all doing something.

Country B is going to have problems paying for retirement schemes and the workers will let them know about it, employment will suffer as the economy bounces all over the show, idiotic regulations will be brought in to reign in the waste produced by their society etc... but they'll still be spending $35 billion trying to get to Mars, and then wonder why they can't afford the basics

I'll take Country A please.

[mashman]

Are tax dodgers a drain on society? Which people that have never worked but have all this money are you talking about? Inheritance?

Yes they are... especially when the govt is in debt and people are suffering because of it. Some I know claim WFF, where they earn more than me. I don't qualify because I earn too much

Fair enough, Paris Hilton and the likes can do what they like with Daddies money. They're not productive. Therefore they are bludgers having not given anything back to society.

[jonbuoy]

Yes they are... especially when the govt is in debt and people are suffering because of it. Some I know claim WFF, where they earn more than me. I don't qualify because I earn too much

Fair enough, Paris Hilton and the likes can do what they like with Daddies money. They're not productive. Therefore they are bludgers having not given anything back to society.

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.

The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). I don´t begrudge Paris Hilton the money, her grandfather worked hard for it. Lottery winners didn´t work for it - I don´t begrudge them either. People defrauding the benefit system, is just that - fraud.

People in the 38% bracket or 50% resent seeing nearly half their money disappear into a benefit system that allows people to be long term unemployed not because they can´t work but because they can´t be bothered to work. If they then loose their job find out that even though they have paid for more into the benefit system they don´t get any more back in return.

[puddytat]

I've noticed that quite alot of us are singing more or less the same song,but just not quite in tune(or KEY)
And I think we all agree that that the systen needs to be more adaptable to our ever changing society,& not stuck in some rut that was fine for a decade or two ago.
Its a bit like the religious that stick to dogmas written 2 thousand years ago...Twas somewhat different then eh.
I gotta go & find some other thread so I can spread it around abit

[puddytat]

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.

The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). .

Dude,you need to get out more....China's so fucking full of clever buggers that can hack any system they wantNot to many people trying to escape is there.
As for the next paragraph, is it not the systems faults you are describing? And the very few long term beneficaries are a direct consequence of its selfish policies?
True wealth is in Goods & Services....people & what they produce.Capitalism is the leeches attatched to them.

[jonbuoy]

Dude,you need to get out more....China's so fucking full of clever buggers that can hack any system they wantNot to many people trying to escape is there.
As for the next paragraph, is it not the systems faults you are describing? And the very few long term beneficaries are a direct consequence of its selfish policies?
True wealth is in Goods & Services....people & what they produce.Capitalism is the leeches attatched to them.

China is not a full on communist equality system though is it? There is a huge gap between rich and poor. Its not exactly the capitalist system that's at fault - its a binge on cheap credit.

[mashman]

Country A will have been brain drained, each to their own - I would leave country A as soon as possible.

Why will it have been brain drained?

The governments here are in debt because they spent too much, the banks are screwed because they lent money to people who can´t pay it back. Poor economics, the banks and governments should have known better (as should the individuals that took on debts and mortgages they could never pay back). I don´t begrudge Paris Hilton the money, her grandfather worked hard for it. Lottery winners didn´t work for it - I don´t begrudge them either. People defrauding the benefit system, is just that - fraud.

Agreed.

People in the 38% bracket or 50% resent seeing nearly half their money disappear into a benefit system that allows people to be long term unemployed not because they can´t work but because they can´t be bothered to work. If they then loose their job find out that even though they have paid for more into the benefit system they don´t get any more back in return.

I don't resent it. There aren't enough jobs. Not getting back what you've put in is par for the course. I don't want cycleways (will never use them either ), but I end up paying for them, I don't see why I should pay for grants for pink batts that I'm not going to use, I don't see why I should pay $35 million for an Irrigation Acceleration Fund that I won't qualify for, I don't believe that Ministers are worth their salaries but I ahve to pay for their perks for life, I don't see why I should shell out $40 million on the Gov-Gens mansion when I'm not going to live there, I don't want to fund cyclists injuries because they don't pay an extra levy and on and on and on... the unemployed (by choice or not) are small bikkies in comparison and are a requirement of a healthy economy.

[jonbuoy]

Why will it have been brain drained?



Agreed.



I don't resent it. There aren't enough jobs. Not getting back what you've put in is par for the course. I don't want cycleways (will never use them either ), but I end up paying for them, I don't see why I should pay for grants for pink batts that I'm not going to use, I don't see why I should pay $35 million for an Irrigation Acceleration Fund that I won't qualify for, I don't believe that Ministers are worth their salaries but I ahve to pay for their perks for life, I don't see why I should shell out $40 million on the Gov-Gens mansion when I'm not going to live there, I don't want to fund cyclists injuries because they don't pay an extra levy and on and on and on... the unemployed (by choice or not) are small bikkies in comparison and are a requirement of a healthy economy.

Why would a top scientist/lawyer work for peanuts when he could earn far more money overseas. Notice the same thing happening in NZ?

[mashman]

Why would a top scientist/lawyer work for peanuts when he could earn far more money overseas. Notice the same thing happening in NZ?

Why would a top scientists be hamstrung by budget and an under educated workforce because society couldn't afford to train people properly?

[puddytat]

China is not a full on communist equality system though is it? There is a huge gap between rich and poor. Its not exactly the capitalist system that's at fault - its a binge on cheap credit.

Nah , I beg to differ, proportionaly per capita the West has more uber rich than China.
Is it not the Capitalist that gleefully hand out the capital to the stupid & greedy?They're in a win/win situation.They get interest on the loans & ultimately title if they default.
And if they collapse who bails them out....you & me
Wheres our shares then?
Whereas using their own philospy they should be left to collapse, just like the banks would do to you & me.
I do agree that China is far from perfect & it is not the model I will impose....