The youth...

[Winston001]

I feel a need to defend Jaz even if I don't agree with him.

His point (if Jaz will forgive me) is there are some yoof who have no normal caring home, who have never learned to respect other people, who feel like they are worthless and outside regular society. They get this from their parents who have an equally hopeless worldview.

Ergo we need to understand these waifs and extend compassion to them.

There is also a subtext that "normal" society is restrictive and indifferent to cultural expression.

Ok, I think wrong is wrong. I think these dispossed yoof do know right from wrong because they are exposed to it at school but home life undermines that.

Standing up for ourselves is the only way they can learn that our tolerant society has limits. Still, subtly has its benefits. Try approaching yoof in a low-key unthreatening way: it is likely to get far better results than anger. It isn't natural or easy to do but I've spent a lifetime learning reflective listening and persuasion. Its hard but it does work.

[unstuck]

I feel a need to defend Jaz even if I don't agree with him.

His point (if Jaz will forgive me) is there are some yoof who have no normal caring home, who have never learned to respect other people, who feel like they are worthless and outside regular society. They get this from their parents who have an equally hopeless worldview.

Ergo we need to understand these waifs and extend compassion to them.

There is also a subtext that "normal" society is restrictive and indifferent to cultural expression.

Ok, I think wrong is wrong. I think these dispossed yoof do know right from wrong because they are exposed to it at school but home life undermines that.

Standing up for ourselves is the only way they can learn that our tolerant society has limits. Still, subtly has its benefits. Try approaching yoof in a low-key unthreatening way: it is likely to get far better results than anger. It isn't natural or easy to do but I've spent a lifetime learning reflective listening and persuasion. Its hard but it does work.

+1 .

[Headbanger]

I feel a need to defend Jaz even if I don't agree with him.

His point (if Jaz will forgive me) is there are some yoof who have no normal caring home, who have never learned to respect other people.....

Which is why its important for society to inform them of acceptable behaviour if there parents didn't install any respect in them. (it sure as hell doesn't equal cultural rights, or something to the endorsed)

All the caring in the world can't turn back 15 years of shit parenting, and jail awaits them if they can't figure out that society has some rules.

Plus of course most of this crap is done at night or on groups, so they already know its not wanted, its just a pathetic little rush for them.

And I was as subtle as I can get, It took a lot of effort. Lmfao.

[Flip]

Its the same old problem with the youth of today, its been around for ages.

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for
authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place
of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their
households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They
contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties
at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers."

Socrates 469-399 BC

They will grow out of it, they always have.

[SMOKEU]

They will grow out of it, they always have.

How much shit do they have to put other people through before they grow out of it?

I wasn't exactly a saint when I was young, as me and my mates would sometimes get drunk at the local park on a Friday night off alcohol I obtained from my dads booze cabinet, but we would NEVER tag or otherwise vandalise property, and we would never hang out in big groups intimidating people.

A line needs to be drawn, and the government needs to take action. The sort of shit that seems to be OK over here is totally unacceptable in many other developed countries.

[Flip]

Tell me you haven't done a burn-out?

I actually feel sorry for the kids today. Everybody is watching what they do and they actually have bugger all real freedom. The things I did when I was young would have gotten me locked up and probably had my parents arrested as well, that was the 60's and 70's thing were different then. I turned out ok, mostly.

You can't be smart without experience and virtue—all virtue—is knowledge. The tagging is just stupid, dumb ass kids behaviour.

A quote from 60 years ago.... "You are where you are today because you stand on somebody's shoulders. ... We have enough youth, how about a fountain of Smart? .... Winston Churchill ...

Nothing has changed, they will grow out of it and next year it will be some thing new to drive the parents crazy.

[jazfender]

Start bagging the messenger and not the message and your argument will lose any credibility with me.

But I guess you don't give a toss about THAT though...

I disagree with the message and the messenger.

I've read this entire thread and are unclear on your views, specifically:

1) Do you think it is OK to tag / vandalise public and private property?
2) Is your issue with how hb called it out to the scum them selves at the time or how he wrote about it on an internet forum?
3) Your full of thoughts on how its everyone's fault 'cept the vandals themselves, have you noticed that the more this meme pervades, the worse "it" gets?
4) If it is not OK / racist for hb to say "shitskins" and "nigger", isn't it also not / OK racist for you to say "fat white old men"? (reference here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrite )
5) Is it OK for me to call them scum or does that make me a "fat white old man" too (you forgot bald, so obviously your prejudices / racism doen't extend as far as hbs!)
6) What is you view on solutions other than to tell ducfucker that he (me?) needs to provide jobs and training?

1) Private, no. Public - it depends.
2) My issue is how he dealt with it, exploding in rage, threatening kids and then boasting about it on the internet like he should be getting praised.
3) I am not suggesting personal accountability is removed, I am saying that there are a lot of contributing factors that SHOULD give Headbanger more than enough reason to exercise restraint, and if he's so concerned - call the people that are employed to police/clear that shit.
4) While my retaliatory use of stereotype was VERY NAUGHTY and hypocritical, I hardly think it is on the same level as what he said. To be honest I only did it to juxtapose HB's comments and if anyone was SRSLY OFFENDED then y'know, I'm sorry. Really my position is that people should be able to say whatever the fuck they like, racist or not but that they should be prepared to deal with those that disagree.
5) You can call them that but whether people think it is OK or not is up to them. Since you're in the company of a bunch of fucking racists you're probably good. Hit SMOKEU up, heard he's having a holocaust party this weekend.

6) Possible solutions:

- Paint over it, seems to be working in West Aucks according to that guy before
- Allow more street art installations in public places, graffiti or not, taggers have more respect for artists than angry bike riders
- Be more tolerant and thus diffuse tagging/vandalism as an act of rebellion
- Change the culture, fucking hard and unlikely but an obvious solution that would involve changing role models and includes big corporations that are making a killing off this shit
- Sort out the poverty/quality of living in neighbourhoods without hope or futures
- Sort out the lingering race/class issues

Not the colour of your skin that fucks me off its your attitude,havent bothered reading the pages past your reply as theres no need its pretty obvious your just another using the colour of your skin to cry foul,get over it eh nobody gives a shit what colour you are but wether pink/brown purple or red start trying to make people feel like you should get special treatment because of it then you will cop some flak.So fucking simple really eh.

Colour of my skin? Mate I make an iceberg look tanned.

I feel a need to defend Jaz even if I don't agree with him.

His point (if Jaz will forgive me) is there are some yoof who have no normal caring home, who have never learned to respect other people, who feel like they are worthless and outside regular society. They get this from their parents who have an equally hopeless worldview.

Ergo we need to understand these waifs and extend compassion to them.

There is also a subtext that "normal" society is restrictive and indifferent to cultural expression.

Ok, I think wrong is wrong. I think these dispossed yoof do know right from wrong because they are exposed to it at school but home life undermines that.

Standing up for ourselves is the only way they can learn that our tolerant society has limits. Still, subtly has its benefits. Try approaching yoof in a low-key unthreatening way: it is likely to get far better results than anger. It isn't natural or easy to do but I've spent a lifetime learning reflective listening and persuasion. Its hard but it does work.

More or less. Especially when it's not even your property.

[jazfender]

How much shit do they have to put other people through before they grow out of it?

I wasn't exactly a saint when I was young, as me and my mates would sometimes get drunk at the local park on a Friday night off alcohol I obtained from my dads booze cabinet, but we would NEVER tag or otherwise vandalise property, and we would never hang out in big groups intimidating people.

You're comparing when you were young to now like it's the same age and same world.

A line needs to be drawn, and the government needs to take action. The sort of shit that seems to be OK over here is totally unacceptable in many other developed countries.

Oh yeah, like what kind of shit and which countries?

[Headbanger]

I disagree with the message and the messenger.
2) My issue is how he dealt with it, exploding in rage, threatening kids and then boasting about it on the internet like he should be getting praised.

That is quite pathetic.

Have you ever witnessed a person "exploding with rage"?

Given that there was no rage explosion, threats, or boasting, I can't see you have done anything for your credibility. I'm going to guess you struggle with quite a few things.

[jazfender]

That is quite pathetic.

Have you ever witnessed a person "exploding with rage"?

Given that there was no rage explosion, threats, or boasting, I can't see you have done anything for your credibility. I'm going to guess you struggle with quite a few things.

Yeah dude I meant literally, you walked over to those kids and detonated.

Fucking idiot.

[ellipsis]

...what about an exploding penguin...

[Headbanger]

Yeah dude I meant literally, you walked over to those kids and detonated.

Fucking idiot.

Pffft, I know what you meant, And your twisted little mind is still miles off.

[Headbanger]

You're comparing when you were young to now like it's the same age and same world.

Seriously, how old are you?, You come across like a child who has grasped a sniff of the adult world, now thinks they know everything, and everyone else is to be dismissed as ignorant.

Your peers are with listening to, People who have been around the block a few times have a far better grasp on the real world then some delusional wet behind the ears twat.

[SMOKEU]

Oh yeah, like what kind of shit and which countries?

I've been to Singapore and I travelled around quite a bit on public transport, and there just wasn't any tagging to be seen anywhere. The punishments are severe for that kind of behaviour, and therefore people behave accordingly. I've walked around late at night and in the early hours of the morning on weekends doing pub crawls in Singapore, and there wasn't any antisocial behaviour that I could see which is rife in NZ. People weren't running around drunk making a huge noise and causing trouble, instead everyone behaved in an orderly manner.

BTW, I'm now 22 years old so it wasn't that long ago when I was 16. Still pretty much the same time and same world.

[jazfender]

I've been to Singapore and I travelled around quite a bit on public transport, and there just wasn't any tagging to be seen anywhere. The punishments are severe for that kind of behaviour, and therefore people behave accordingly. I've walked around late at night and in the early hours of the morning on weekends doing pub crawls in Singapore, and there wasn't any antisocial behaviour that I could see which is rife in NZ. People weren't running around drunk making a huge noise and causing trouble, instead everyone behaved in an orderly manner.

Wtf Singapore, really?

Obviously there's reduced crime/tagging with a country that still uses caning and the death penalty as punishment. Not to mention the limited freedom of citizens and press.

BTW, I'm now 22 years old so it wasn't that long ago when I was 16. Still pretty much the same time and same world.

Aight I admit, I made an unfair assumption on your age because of your racism. Sorry about that.

Whether or not you tagged as a teenager makes no difference to my argument.