Who will win the 2011 election?

[Ocean1]

I must have. What schools? And what aspects of financial "accumen" do they teach?

Dunno. But if the knowledge was important to my future plans I'd fucking soon find out.

aha, and people lie... be useful to learn how to hang on to as much of your money as possible at school? I tried to stay away from school as much as possible without getting caught. Did quite well too, until 3 months from the end of the final year .

I guess we'll never know if the individual will take that opportunity, unless of course we arm them with the tips and tricks from the best, yes? Is that sort of thing in place at schools?

As for the drivel. You say that individual failure is the primary reason for societies ills, No, I said individual failure was the primary cause of a lack of individual success. Maybe we do need better training, something that teaches kids what the conscquences of their choices are, eh? and I disagree, to an extent. I'm not saying that that isn't part of it, but are you saying that 1 individual failure that affects 100 or 1000 other individuals, is actually an individual failure on the part of 100/1000 people also? No. I assume you're taking a shot at business owners? If so and if they fuck up to the extent that people lose jobs then statistically it's likely their performance had something to do with it. Like any team activity, though it's usually not just one man's fault. The stats were kinda used to highlight that that couldn't be the case as societies ills are across the board and you've only accounted for 7% of the population thus far. Where 1% are sweet as and 6% are unemployed and by your definition are so because of, primarily, individual failures. That still leaves 93% of the population who are contributing and not individually failing, yet a portion (I'd guess half) are still subject to "something" that isn't individual failure, but brings out the "worst" in them. I call income distribution. Ypu've lost me. I don't accept that any significant part of that 93% have had the "worst" brung out in them.

The balance of income distribution, according to SoFIE, is that 50% of the population receive 10% of the wealth. Which I guess leads to crime and leaning on the system to top up the bank balance... and that would highlight to me that income distribution is more of a cause for society's ills than individual failure, and that as a society, collectively, we are responsible for the "problems" of the people by deciding that we are worth more than them... irrespective of the fact that we all contribute the same numbers of hours. Which I find stoopid.

Thanks for the ice cream reminder. Any clearer?

So you're firmly in the "from each according to his ability, to each according to hos needs camp?

Sorry, dude, not only do we not contribute the same number of hours but there's the little issue of the value of the contribution. Like it or not some people simply produce more than others.

I understand your (?) concern about senior exec's income, though, it's hard to see the value in some of those cases.

[Ocean1]

If you were working when I was growing up in NZ , then you should be receiving a handout in the form a a pension ? well and truly . I congratulate you on your advanced age and the fact you are still riding a , nice bike ,

Thank you. If it's any consolation; it hurts.

I do suggest though , you wear your specs when looking for propaganda , because, well you are well " in it , using it and maybe believing it " ( I might be as well , but I m trying hard not to , and change readily, when I get some new info that causes me to have a rethink , such as I have tonight ...new info on the economy makes me think I need to rethink, my views about government spending ,,, )

None of us believe we're influenced by bullshit. My old science teacher used to tell me "look first, then think". Looking at some collections of information it's not difficult to see that they've been assembled to prove a predetermined premis. I distrust all political stat's, and a lot of modern academic literature smells very similar.

Off top of head the largest expenditure of say the "sav" let use the benefit one , is the "old people " pensions, the DPB and the unemployable , are less than a quarter but they seem to be demonised why is that ???

Dude, the old would move the earth for the chance to be otherwise. They've also contributed to the purse from which they must live. Must, because for most any attempt to accumulate enough to save for a modest suficiency in their dotage has been made extremely difficult by taxes aimed at snaffled exactly such surplusses. I've done OK, but I'm appaled at the level of income required to cater for ones own retirement. I'm one of Mashmate's 96%, see.

I understand how you feel , as you look around and perceive the world , and we base our views on , upbringing , education, etc , and if they are erroneous ,??? old engineering saying , garbage in garbage out

Stephen

Yup, early learning in particular. However I've been "educated" frequently, and I never listened to my mother at the best of times...

[mashman]

Dunno. But if the knowledge was important to my future plans I'd fucking soon find out.
I guess it's pretty important for the prosperity of the country if the hype is to be believed (which I don't). Wonder why they don't teach it at school... now there's a thread mwuhahahahahaaaa

No. I assume you're taking a shot at business owners? If so and if they fuck up to the extent that people lose jobs then statistically it's likely their performance had something to do with it. Like any team activity, though it's usually not just one man's fault.
Not really no, just trying to grasp individual failure in a multi person "failure context" (where my understanding of you individual failure was wrong)... Of course it's one mans fault. There is a leader, ok there may well be a board, but there is still a leader who supposedly has the business smarts to ensure the survival of that business. That's why they pay themselves the big bucks... after all they contribute more, and as such shouldn't be projecting their failure on their team.


So you're firmly in the "from each according to his ability, to each according to hos needs camp?

To a certain degree yes... where I'd like to see the right person in the right job and not just talkin a good game, and everyone having access to what's available irrespective of perceived effort.

Sorry, dude, not only do we not contribute the same number of hours but there's the little issue of the value of the contribution. Like it or not some people simply produce more than others.
I agree, apart from the value part. The value part muddies the waters, where people position themselves to receive the greater rewards and aren't necessarily the best person for the job (I've met plenty). I don't see that as being useful, more so I'd say it was massively counter productive. I have no issue with anyone producing less work than me, or vice versa, it's the time that has been put in that matters imho. Everyone's effort is valuable, as you say, team effort. The value, both $$$ and ability rated, is the real culprit. You value my effort less than yours and I perceive that I do better work than you, what's the likely outcome? 2 non focussed people. Whilst I agree with you in terms of people not being equal and therefore not putting in equal amounts of perceived effort, I disagree that that should be highlighted in terms of reward.


I understand your (?) concern about senior exec's income, though, it's hard to see the value in some of those cases.

There's that value again. Get rid of the "value" perspective and we may be in with a shout of getting the country out of the hole it's in... amongst other things

So are you referring to individual failure as not using every ounce of ones ability from the get go?

[mashman]

Dunno. But if the knowledge was important to my future plans I'd fucking soon find out.
I guess it's pretty important for the prosperity of the country if the hype is to be believed (which I don't). Wonder why they don't teach it at school... now there's a thread mwuhahahahahaaaa

No. I assume you're taking a shot at business owners? If so and if they fuck up to the extent that people lose jobs then statistically it's likely their performance had something to do with it. Like any team activity, though it's usually not just one man's fault.
Not really no, just trying to grasp individual failure in a multi person "failure context" (where my understanding of you individual failure was wrong)... Of course it's one mans fault. There is a leader, ok there may well be a board, but there is still a leader who supposedly has the business smarts to ensure the survival of that business. That's why they pay themselves the big bucks... after all they contribute more, and as such shouldn't be projecting their failure on their team.


So you're firmly in the "from each according to his ability, to each according to hos needs camp?
To a certain degree yes... where I'd like to see the right person in the right job and not just talkin a good game, and everyone having access to what's available irrespective of perceived effort.

Sorry, dude, not only do we not contribute the same number of hours but there's the little issue of the value of the contribution. Like it or not some people simply produce more than others.
I agree, apart from the value part. The value part muddies the waters, where people position themselves to receive the greater rewards and aren't necessarily the best person for the job (I've met plenty). I don't see that as being useful, more so I'd say it was massively counter productive. I have no issue with anyone producing less work than me, or vice versa, it's the time that has been put in that matters imho. Everyone's effort is valuable, as you say, team effort. The value, both $$$ and ability rated, is the real culprit. You value my effort less than yours and I perceive that I do better work than you, what's the likely outcome? 2 non focussed people. Whilst I agree with you in terms of people not being equal and therefore not putting in equal amounts of perceived effort, I disagree that that should be highlighted in terms of reward.


I understand your (?) concern about senior exec's income, though, it's hard to see the value in some of those cases.
There's that value again. Get rid of the "value" perspective and we may be in with a shout of getting the country out of the hole it's in... amongst other things

So are you referring to individual failure as not using every ounce of ones ability from the get go?

[Ocean1]

I guess it's pretty important for the prosperity of the country if the hype is to be believed (which I don't). Wonder why they don't teach it at school... now there's a thread mwuhahahahahaaaa

They do, as I said. In fact if you're concerned about the nation's future prosperity you'd arsehole student loans altogether and offer genuinely free education leading to those careers that generate wealth.

Not really no, just trying to grasp individual failure in a multi person "failure context" (where my understanding of you individual failure was wrong)... Of course it's one mans fault. There is a leader, ok there may well be a board, but there is still a leader who supposedly has the business smarts to ensure the survival of that business. That's why they pay themselves the big bucks... after all they contribute more, and as such shouldn't be projecting their failure on their team.

But you don't agree that a leader should be paid more. So why should he shoulder more of the blame for any group failure? In fact if he's the owner of a business in trouble it's likely he's been taking much less from it than his employees for some time...


To a certain degree yes... where I'd like to see the right person in the right job and not just talkin a good game, and everyone having access to what's available irrespective of perceived effort.

I agree, apart from the value part. The value part muddies the waters, where people position themselves to receive the greater rewards and aren't necessarily the best person for the job (I've met plenty). I don't see that as being useful, more so I'd say it was massively counter productive. I have no issue with anyone producing less work than me, or vice versa, it's the time that has been put in that matters imho. Everyone's effort is valuable, as you say, team effort. The value, both $$$ and ability rated, is the real culprit. You value my effort less than yours and I perceive that I do better work than you, what's the likely outcome? 2 non focussed people. Whilst I agree with you in terms of people not being equal and therefore not putting in equal amounts of perceived effort, I disagree that that should be highlighted in terms of reward.


There's that value again. Get rid of the "value" perspective and we may be in with a shout of getting the country out of the hole it's in... amongst other things

Dude, that's as succinct a description of communism as I've ever heard. Now tell me why I should work hard, (or at all for that matter) if the extra effort isn't rewarded.

So are you referring to individual failure as not using every ounce of ones ability from the get go?

No. Ability has fuck all to do with success. Individual failure is like a system default, it's what happens when you don't select an alternative course and act to make it work.

[mashman]

They do, as I said. In fact if you're concerned about the nation's future prosperity you'd arsehole student loans altogether and offer genuinely free education leading to those careers that generate wealth.
I'd bin student loans in heartbeat... but across the board and not selectively.

But you don't agree that a leader should be paid more. So why should he shoulder more of the blame for any group failure? In fact if he's the owner of a business in trouble it's likely he's been taking much less from it than his employees for some time...
Because it's his/her job to make sure the venture doesn't fail. If he doesn't have a team, he doesn't have a job does he? Each person has his own area of expertise, and each person has their own responsibilities for the team. No one responsibility is more important than the other where any single point of failure can cause the whole thing to collapse. So I don't see why should the leader be paid more, after all, the only real difference is the skillset and all skill are required to make a venture "fly". I honestly feel for those who have to struggle to get and keep their businesses going, losing time with family and friends and putting everything they have on the line etc... I'm not as anti-business as some may think. I'd just prefer the adoption of a slightly different model

Dude, that's as succinct a description of communism as I've ever heard. Now tell me why I should work hard, (or at all for that matter) if the extra effort isn't rewarded.
If you don't everyone "loses". You shouldn't have to work hard, not in the sense of long hours anyway, just work as well as you can, exactly the same way you probably do, potentially better/smarter. There's enough people in the country to produce everything we need, probably providing greater backup too, and probably leaving us with more time to use in anyway we'd prefer (come up with a theory of relativity perhaps, amongst other hobbies, we will still have hobbies). Do you not enjoy the reward of achievement? I have no doubt that there will be those who just won't work, and 1 potential incentive for working could be overseas "travel", but I'd venture that a decent education policy and a little brainwashing would instill a different set of values in the upcoming generation and for the better. I could be very wrong, but the benefits of a system where we do things because they need doing and not because they pay well (pregnancy for money, theft etc...) are probably more suited to this day and age than at any other point in history imho. We're supposed to be smarter, we're supposed to learn from our mistakes, we're supposed to be so many things, but currently it's all limited by budget and wether the person we're dealing with is being financially retrded in one way or another... I don't think that's unrealistic at all and I certainly wouldn't class it as communism, irrespective of the traits the two "ideals" may share.

No. Ability has fuck all to do with success. Individual failure is like a system default, it's what happens when you don't select an alternative course and act to make it work.

So you're in the "if you don't suck it you'll never see" camp? I see a wee smidge of irony in there.

[MisterD]

the fruits of that increased production were only eaten by a few ...

One could say "What's changed?" - go back and compare the income differential between a director of the East India Company and a sailor on one of their ships.

OTOH one of the fruits of that increased production has been to lift millions out of poverty in Asia...

[Brian d marge]

One could say "What's changed?" - go back and compare the income differential between a director of the East India Company and a sailor on one of their ships.

OTOH one of the fruits of that increased production has been to lift millions out of poverty in Asia...

Sort of the " black death " had a affect on the "Known " population at that time, but after WW2 probably around a 1/3 of the population suddenly appeared. Strangely, the king at the time 1350 ish in england actually sent round a note saying you shall work for no matter what you are offered ... because there simply wasn't enough manpower....
Also the computer and improved production methods

Stephen

[oldrider]

Also the computer and improved production methods Stephen

True!

Labour saving devices do just that ... save labour!

Getting the balance between freeing up time and using that time to create further labour saving devices and more free time to enjoy by improving our standard of living gets lost on those that are commissioned to manage those outcomes!

We can now send people and science projects deep out into space but we are still not able (or willing) to produce a financial system that compliments that and every day living!

The whole world is still dependent on a proven failed system of social compounding debt!

The simple antidote for social debt is Social credit!

Vested interest parties (the 1%r's?) just keep telling us that it wont work and foolishly, we (the 99%) keep believing them!

Never mind we can always protest against the 1% by camping out in the centre of the city .... that will do it every time! Tui moments again!

[rainman]

Nice story. Tell you what, you continue to believe it's someone else's fault that there's people less prosperous than they'd like and I'll continue to believe that success is mostly a function of my own behaviour, eh? Let me know if you need a hand.

But I don't hold that view - now, isn't that inconvenient?

Sad that you're not interested in proving or challenging your assertion, though, and that you prefer to retreat to belief. I'm sure you have many weaknesses (don't we all?) but I hadn't thought blatant irrationality was one of them.


EDIT: Just seen this from higher up.Sad indeed.

Looking at some collections of information it's not difficult to see that they've been assembled to prove a predetermined premis. I distrust all political stat's, and a lot of modern academic literature smells very similar.

[MisterD]

Strangely, the king at the time 1350 ish in england actually sent round a note saying you shall work for no matter what you are offered ... because there simply wasn't enough manpower....

It's pretty well documented that England's legal system, which was independent of the king, and applied more-or-less equally to everyone, allowed a competitive labour market to arise following the black death. Former serfs were able to rent and then buy land...the origins of capitalism.

[oldrider]

Labour suffered it's worst defeat ever and here's TV 1 treating them like they had just won the damn thing .... biased lefty bastards!

[Brian d marge]

It's pretty well documented that England's legal system, which was independent of the king, and applied more-or-less equally to everyone, allowed a competitive labour market to arise following the black death. Former serfs were able to rent and then buy land...the origins of capitalism.

Somethings amiss there somewhere , not sure what ...

Stephen

[Robert Taylor]

Labour suffered it's worst defeat ever and here's TV 1 treating them like they had just won the damn thing .... biased lefty bastards!

Yep, and what about finding the rest of the Green party activists that assisted that dropkick in defacing over 700 National party billboards? Criminals. Apparently a couple of good tories having a cup of tea is more newsworthy. The silly thing is this probably took a lot of votes off their mates in the Labour party and resurrected Winston from the dead. All things considered I am glad that in the face of left wing skullduggery Banksie won the seat. As in another way I am not so unhappy that Damien Oconnor got his seat back and reduced in percentage terms the faggots in the Labour party., there is hope for a world devoid of PC nonsense yet.
The news media is full of left wingers.

[SPman]

Labour suffered it's worst defeat ever and here's TV 1 treating them like they had just won the damn thing .... biased lefty bastards!

I quite like this comment from I/S

As for Labour, two months of solid left-wing policy couldn't make up for three years of doing nothing in opposition. And thanks to a list focused on protecting long-serving incumbent hacks, they've thrown the future of the party overboard, sacrificing people like Carmel Sepuloni, Stuart Nash and Brendan Burns in order to retain such stellar performers as Sue Moroney, Maryan Street and Rajen Prasad. Heckuva job, guys. You've got no-one but yourselves to blame for this one. Not that that will stop you.
As can be seen, the tide is against the left at the moment, primarily because of the failure of the Labour Party. Assuming they get around 50,000 specials, they will have lost 200,000 votes since the last election. 50,000 of them have gone to the Greens, and 50,000 to NZFirst. As for the rest, they stayed home, unwilling to turn out for a Labour Party so uninspiring. Labour will blame them, of course, and make a lot of noise about "apathy" and evil polls, but that's just excuse-making. If parties want our votes, the onus is on them to make us care enough to spend ten minutes to tick a box. Labour didn't do that. And their desire to blame us rather than accept responsibility for their own failure is a big part of the reason why.