Safer Journeys for Motorcycling

**trustme** · 18th January 2012, 01:04

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

Studies find it so, & bikers (as a general rule) want to be on the road, we ain't on it "just cause we have to be" So being something we love, we appreciate it not just use it. Somewhat the same diff between computer "geeks" vs computer users

I don't buy that. Golfers might love to whack a ball but they are not all Tiger Woods. Rider may like to ride that does not make them Rossi or Chris Birch.

A retired instructor for the police motorcyclists expressed to me his concern at the low level of ability of many riders to carry out basic bike handling manouvres

We collectively are nowhere near as good as we think. We are kidding ourselves. Studies find it so.

**riffer** · 18th January 2012, 06:38

You are correct in many things there trustme.

But think upon this: a substantial majority of injury and fatal accidents involving motorcycles have a common factor - the riders or car drivers were not operating their vehicle with the correct licence, i.e. learners outside of hours, or learner on larger motorcycle, or worse yet, no licence at all.

If we can't currently police this issue, how do you think we can do it after we've legislated for a bigger emphasis on licenses?

Do you advocate a much higher police presence, or a BIG crackdown on motorcyclists?

**MSTRS:Me** · 18th January 2012, 07:30

Majority, Riffer? I don't think so...

**Scuba_Steve** · 18th January 2012, 07:51

Originally Posted by trustme

I don't buy that. Golfers might love to whack a ball but they are not all Tiger Woods. Rider may like to ride that does not make them Rossi or Chris Birch.

A retired instructor for the police motorcyclists expressed to me his concern at the low level of ability of many riders to carry out basic bike handling manouvres

We collectively are nowhere near as good as we think. We are kidding ourselves. Studies find it so.

I never said we were "the best of the best" (Rossi or Birch). Studies do show as a general rule bikers are better road users than car drivers, for the reasons I stated (this is bikers too NOT scooterists)
But car enthusiasts would also be up with the bikers in skill level, but being as everyone has a car they are the minority in the majority.

Also don't confuse this either, the study was not about legality, I believe the car drivers as a general rule were found to be more legal. This was about safety, awareness, responsiveness, skill etc

**Conquiztador** · 18th January 2012, 08:09

Originally Posted by riffer

You are correct in many things there trustme.

But think upon this: a substantial majority of injury and fatal accidents involving motorcycles have a common factor - the riders or car drivers were not operating their vehicle with the correct licence, i.e. learners outside of hours, or learner on larger motorcycle, or worse yet, no licence at all.

I am not saying you are wrong, but would like you to show those facts and where they are stated. Because if you are right, then the issue becomes something totally different.

**Katman** · 18th January 2012, 08:23

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

I never said we were "the best of the best" (Rossi or Birch). Studies do show as a general rule bikers are better road users than car drivers, for the reasons I stated (this is bikers too NOT scooterists)
But car enthusiasts would also be up with the bikers in skill level, but being as everyone has a car they are the minority in the majority.

Also don't confuse this either, the study was not about legality, I believe the car drivers as a general rule were found to be more legal. This was about safety, awareness, responsiveness, skill etc

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

**Scuba_Steve** · 18th January 2012, 08:32

Originally Posted by Katman

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

ummm...

**avgas** · 18th January 2012, 08:41

Originally Posted by trustme

Most motorbike accidents don't involve motorists
Hence TPTB find it easier to cull motorcyclists by legislation.
That will only stop when the collective WE get our act together & improve our safety record

mo·tor·ist (mtr-st)
n.
One who drives or travels in an automotive vehicle.

Many who ride bikes, do so for all the wrong reason. They don't "ride" they "travel with". These motorcyclists effectively are 'motorists'. They don't do it to feel exposed, or to pit themselves against their machine. Perhaps I am a bit funny but me riding a bike is a religion, not transport, not a status symbol, not a "step back in time" nostalgia element. Its just me, and the bike.

As mentioned earlier. There are too many motorbike accidents. I blame the motorists.
Time to cull them off all together.
Leaving only the fanatics behind.

**MSTRS:Me** · 18th January 2012, 08:43

Originally Posted by Katman

You really do live in a dream world, don't you?

If that were really the case we wouldn't be having anywhere near as many crashes as we do.

Don't entirely agree...
(Long time) motorcyclists develop greater skills of observation, for instance, compared to car drivers - but, on a vehicle which is inherently unstable and does not protect the operator in a crash, we are NEVER going to compare favourably with cars.
Take a bit of gravel mid-corner...the rider may have missed seeing it for any number of reasons. The bike goes down and the rider breaks a leg and wrist. The car may skitter slightly, the driver says "whoopsie" and carries on.

**avgas** · 18th January 2012, 08:43

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

I never said we were "the best of the best" (Rossi or Birch). Studies do show as a general rule bikers are better road users than car drivers, for the reasons I stated (this is bikers too NOT scooterists)
But car enthusiasts would also be up with the bikers in skill level, but being as everyone has a car they are the minority in the majority.
Also don't confuse this either, the study was not about legality, I believe the car drivers as a general rule were found to be more legal. This was about safety, awareness, responsiveness, skill etc

Motorcyclists have the advantage that they die off if they aren't good enough though. As do car enthusiast sometimes.

**Katman** · 18th January 2012, 08:50

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

ummm...

Difference being, in my little dream world I'm not wearing a pair of these.

http://maximumoverload.net/smf/index...a=media;id=200

**Katman** · 18th January 2012, 08:52

Originally Posted by MSTRS

Don't entirely agree...
(Long time) motorcyclists develop greater skills of observation, for instance, compared to car drivers - but, on a vehicle which is inherently unstable and does not protect the operator in a crash, we are NEVER going to compare favourably with cars.
Take a bit of gravel mid-corner...the rider may have missed seeing it for any number of reasons. The bike goes down and the rider breaks a leg and wrist. The car may skitter slightly, the driver says "whoopsie" and carries on.

Are you saying that hitting a bit of gravel and crashing shows a greater skill level than a car driver???

**avgas** · 18th January 2012, 08:53

Originally Posted by trustme

I don't buy that. Golfers might love to whack a ball but they are not all Tiger Woods. Rider may like to ride that does not make them Rossi or Chris Birch.
A retired instructor for the police motorcyclists expressed to me his concern at the low level of ability of many riders to carry out basic bike handling manouvres
We collectively are nowhere near as good as we think. We are kidding ourselves. Studies find it so.

I actually agree with this completely.
But this is usually not resolved by riding courses or hi-viz. Hell my last training day I went to, I left early because I felt it did not put enough pressure on people.
It truly scares me with the number of 50+ year olds, women or cruiser types who I talk to about riding (or driving) and come up with the following statements:
"Why do I need to learn how to slide/drift? I'm too old for that tomfoolery"
"I don't need to lean the bike over, I take it slow"
"I don't need to know what happens when I slam on the brakes"
"Pushing a vehicle to its limits is stupid and reckless"

Hate to point it out to you lot, but even though you don't know what your vehicles limit is it doesn't change the fact that the laws of physics still apply (even above the law of the police). If you don't know what happens when your tyres slip, your brakes lockup, the weight of your bike changes.......and you find yourself in a situation where the laws of physics kick in......your fucked.
Doesn't matter if your doing 80kph on a BMW or 200 kph on a GSXR......if you don't know how to react, or what to expect, your fucked.

**Scuba_Steve** · 18th January 2012, 08:56

Originally Posted by avgas

Motorcyclists have the advantage that they die off if they aren't good enough though. As do car enthusiast sometimes.

there are very good logical reasons why motorcyclist fare better in skill studies

- Everyone has a car, bikes (like car enthusiasts) are a "niche" market of those whom actually want/enjoy them & the road
- Bikers (like car enthusiasts) tend to hang out or catch up with other bikers, we are our own little community & we like to talk about bikes so we learn skills, techniques, dangers from others in our group, general car driving population (exception to enthusiasts) don't have this. (this is our biggest advantage to helping bikers stay safe, get them in with other bikers whom will "show them the way" as such)
- Bikers either do it right or feel the pain, car drivers just have higher premiums for screwing up. Humans learn through physical pain.
- Bikers tend to get an appreciation of their machine learn how it responds, its capabilities etc. general public car drivers don't care
- Bikers have to stay aware, if someone else screws up we feel it. We don't want to!
- Bikes take more attention to operate so we tend not to get the "daydream driving" effect like those with cruise control automatic cars

just to mention a few