How hard can it be?

[Berries]

Having said that, I believe that (at the barest minimum) 90% of motorcycle accidents could be avoided through some action by the motorcyclist.

Yep, I'd say 90% is a minimum. I mean, I can only think of a handful of crash types that wouldn't be avoidable.

[oneofsix]

Yep, I'd say 90% is a minimum. I mean, I can only think of a handful of crash types that wouldn't be avoidable.

You fellas are being so so conservative. Of course 100% can be avoided if only the rider would not ride in the first place. Actually 100% of all road crashes can be avoided if only we avoid the roads.

[Katman]

Refer post #50.

[Berries]

You fellas are being so so conservative. Of course 100% can be avoided if only the rider would not ride in the first place. Actually 100% of all road crashes can be avoided if only we avoid the roads.

Ok, let's assume we all keep on riding on the roads. Can you list some crashes that are completely unavoidable?

Car running red light at speed.
The very rare tyre blow out.
Is a chain snapping a maintenance issue?
Vehicle reversing at you at traffic lights.
Isolated and completely shit piece of road.
Total idiot other road user. (Rare, but killed a rider down here a couple of years ago)

That's me done. I am sure there are a couple of others, but I struggle to think of more than a handful of bike crashes that I know of where the rider didn't either a) contribute to it, b) make a poor decision or c) make no decision. SMIDSY is bullshit. You saw them, you should have been ready for them to do the wrong thing.

[Katman]

You forgot the meteor option.

[swbarnett]

...he was completely oblivious to the carnage he had caused ...

The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.

[Grubber]

Come on man, you're just trying to excuse poor form.

Cars don't suddenly pull U-turns without having given away clues beforehand, escape routes should have automatically been worked out in your head before a car even has a chance to fail to give way and anyone that proclaims "there was nothing I could have done" is just being lazy (or needs serious training).

Poor form ya reckon. not so sure about that. Motorcyclists aren't, and never will be, superhuman! As with cars!
Cars doing U turns have in fact done them without any real indication of doing them. I know this due to having seen them do it.
There is not always an escape route either. When one pulls out of a line parked cars into a single lane of traffic, there is no escape route, and don't try to tell me there would have been some indication as to what they were doing. Try tinted windows and wet. Can't see anyone inside the car and it had no lights on. Came straight and took my mate with him.
This is just one scenario i can offer and i would bet there was many more.
I don't disagree with you about all the "beware of surroundings and looking for escape routes etc" but you can't account for the "being in the wrong place at the wrong time''. This does happen plenty of times. It's not just up to the rider to beware either, would be nice if the car driver could work on some of these skills also.
I think you maybe over doing this a little, cause sometimes there is "nothing i could do" situations out there and that has nothing to do with being lazy.

[Grubber]

The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.

Agreed. Couldn't get it any simpler than that. But there is some people around here that would put it that the car that got rammed should have spotted it coming and taken evasive action. Maybe, but it sure wasn't their fault!

[Grubber]

Ok, let's assume we all keep on riding on the roads. Can you list some crashes that are completely unavoidable?

Car running red light at speed.
The very rare tyre blow out.
Is a chain snapping a maintenance issue?
Vehicle reversing at you at traffic lights.
Isolated and completely shit piece of road.
Total idiot other road user. (Rare, but killed a rider down here a couple of years ago)

That's me done. I am sure there are a couple of others, but I struggle to think of more than a handful of bike crashes that I know of where the rider didn't either a) contribute to it, b) make a poor decision or c) make no decision. SMIDSY is bullshit. You saw them, you should have been ready for them to do the wrong thing.

There is in fact tons more to add, problem is though, you're wanting the ones where the biker has to do the thinking for another human being and i have never found anyone who can do that yet.
I would never say there isn't something we can do at various levels but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people. I'm good, but i'm not telepathic yet.

[oneofsix]

This is about each others safety after all.

Checking your mirrors at a stand still IS taught at advanced rider training, the amount of riders that have been killed or left paralyzed due to some ignorant fuck tard rear ending them is absolutely mind blowing!
Check your mirrors when ever possible!...its that simple guys...it could save your life oneday, cos I certainly DON'T want to read another biker down thread that involves any of my KB mates

There Panel damage...could be our life! (I keep saying this for a reason...WE are the ones who need to dodge, to see them coming and survive!!)

Ok Willy I'll play nice ... maybe.
I should perhaps be replying direct to onearmedbandit's post #49 but there is rather a lot in there.
He is correct that you should be checking your mirrors, at least until there is a cage stopped behind you to protect your rear. I'm afraid my original reaction was as if he was one of these posters that expect the biker to be superhumanly perfect at all times, his post #49 and other general posts show how badly I have maligned him. I should have paid more attention to who was posting.
As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should. I you look at the traffic laws closely you will see plenty of cases where one law only works when another is also applied.
It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn. Of course in a theoretical world there are no rough road surfaces or loose dog/kids or even pretty woman (their loss).

[Berries]

As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should.

I'm a mainly commuter rider now and have no choice in what conditions I ride. I would say something happens at least every fortnight that could catch me out if I was having an off moment. Some days several incidents one after each other. You can't rely on other road users to do as they should, that's half the problem.

[oneofsix]

I'm a mainly commuter rider now and have no choice in what conditions I ride. I would say something happens at least every fortnight that could catch me out if I was having an off moment. Some days several incidents one after each other. You can't rely on other road users to do as they should, that's half the problem.

I am not relying on them but at the same time when someone does get caught out I don't jump on the "they should have avoided it" bandwagon. Sorry but I don't agree with bullying the injured. Practical help and advice to avoid being hurt - yes, unrealistic expectation - no, and 90% of the time the they could have avoided it comments are thrown out there without the full facts. BTW the 90% is pulled for the other posts, it is more like 100% of the time with knowing what really happened that the unhelpful finger pointing starts.

[Katman]

There is in fact tons more to add, problem is though, you're wanting the ones where the biker has to do the thinking for another human being and i have never found anyone who can do that yet.
I would never say there isn't something we can do at various levels but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people. I'm good, but i'm not telepathic yet.

Yes, heaven forbid that we should expect motorcyclists to exercise their brains while riding.

[James Deuce]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base. You're kind of ignoring the fact that you improve as you gain experience and knowlwedge, IF you have the right mindset and you learn to identify clueless road users and hazards simply by glancing at them. This improvement is infinite in scope, at least until you shuffle off, or decide you're not up for riding a bike any more.

Your subconcious is really good at compiling experience into implicit knowledge and if you actively seek to develop the correct habits and modify those over time as necessary, your subconcious will look at the dirty Nissan Primera with the large middle age woman driving, a car which is dirty, has mismatched tyres, a broken indicator lense, and rubbish poking up above the level of the windows and will identify that vehicle as being piloted by someone who won't see you and won't have any regard for your safety - if you've had the same experiences I've had. You will note the driver parallel to you on the motorway two lanes over and slightly behind you but not in your mirrors, your peripheral vision will send a message to habitual response centre and you'll accelerate out of harm's way before they try to occupy your space with no indication or warning. An exercised subconsious will identify these risks almost instantly.

Try to be a bit more open-minded about this topic. It isn't definable as having predictable outcomes or an end-state of competence, nor will you operate at the same skill and knowledge level your whole life. If you do, you'll keep having the same problems over and over.

[Berries]

I am not relying on them but at the same time when someone does get caught out I don't jump on the "they should have avoided it" bandwagon. Sorry but I don't agree with bullying the injured. Practical help and advice to avoid being hurt - yes, unrealistic expectation - no, and 90% of the time the they could have avoided it comments are thrown out there without the full facts. BTW the 90% is pulled for the other posts, it is more like 100% of the time with knowing what really happened that the unhelpful finger pointing starts.

Ok, without bullying the injured, berating the dead or talking about any specific crash, I would say that nearly all of the motorbike crashes that I have looked at over the years as a crash investigator became unavoidable at a particular moment in time due to a combination of issues. While the rider may have no control of many of those issuses some of them he does and in most cases the crash could have been avoided by identifying and dealing with just one of those, whether it is lane position, speed, following distance, corner set up, attitude or whatever.

Not all, but the majority.