How hard can it be?

[oneofsix]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base.

Wrong. In fact a lot of the rest of what you say supports our arguments. My skill base is generally ahead of where I am arguing from, like noticing the plonker in the 4x4 reading the newspaper at the lights etc. I just will not accept those that jump on every bike crash and spout that it should have been avoided with unrealistic expectation of how and without full knowledge of the circumstances.

[James Deuce]

It's quite difficult to discuss anything with a closed mind. It becomes an argument with negative connotations. I'm not willing to go there.

[willytheekid]

The only one responsible for the carnage is the idiot that couldn't stop in the clear road ahead.

Agreed. Couldn't get it any simpler than that. But there is some people around here that would put it that the car that got rammed should have spotted it coming and taken evasive action. Maybe, but it sure wasn't their fault!

...hmmm, I don't remember seeing you guys there (You could have at least helped me get PhatGirl back on the road!...fat bitch got bogged in the mud! )

To be fair to all the drivers involved, the conditions were absolutely atrocious!, visability went from bugger all to total white out in the matter of seconds! (The fog, rain and hail was truly shocking!)
The traffic was already crawling along at approx 70-80kph and the hail storm turned the road into an instant skating rink...it really was a shitty day to be on the road

The guy who stopped to "look at the pritty hail".... did so in a VERY unsafe manner (see "slammed on brakes!") and everyone REALLY struggled to stop...as for the 4x4/ute, he really didn't stand a chance in those conditions, In fact he did well to bring that big bugger to a stand still, true...he did rear end the car...but had he not been driving to the conditions...some poor bugger would have died that day (And he was damn near crying when he got out to check the other driver was ok)
And the other driver DID see him coming...but had no where to go

End of the day...were all human!...we ALL make mistakes and sadly...a small lapse in judgement or concentration...can result in a lost life.

Hence this discussion regarding mirrors, exit points and evasion...its not about whos best, or who can do what 90% of the time!
...its about looking out for each other, sharing our experiences, opinions and training so we don't read about...or have witness, ANOTHER rider getting taken out by a stupid lapse in concentration or some silly mistake...its about survival on NZ roads...OUR survival

And I for one...will use every tip, trick or skill I know to do just that...survive! (So I can enjoy riding for another 30yrs)

Ride Safe KBers

[Katman]

It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn.

What about the right front wheel turned to right lock?

[onearmedbandit]

Ok Willy I'll play nice ... maybe.
I should perhaps be replying direct to onearmedbandit's post #49 but there is rather a lot in there.
He is correct that you should be checking your mirrors, at least until there is a cage stopped behind you to protect your rear. I'm afraid my original reaction was as if he was one of these posters that expect the biker to be superhumanly perfect at all times, his post #49 and other general posts show how badly I have maligned him. I should have paid more attention to who was posting.
As a commuter rider I don't get the choice of only riding when everything is perfect and the moon in the 7th heaven and therefore realise that the biker can also have off moments and the safe use of our roads relies on ALL road users doing what they should. I you look at the traffic laws closely you will see plenty of cases where one law only works when another is also applied.
It's like this 90% thing the idiots are bleating on about now and the example of the U-turning driver. Whilst the crash might be theoretically avoidable it isn't always realistically avoidable, tinted windows, other distractions like loose dogs or rough road surface, overloaded holiday makers cars are just some of the things that can mean the biker doesn't see that instantaneous movement (if it is even there) that precedes the U-turn. Of course in a theoretical world there are no rough road surfaces or loose dog/kids or even pretty woman (their loss).

Thanks for your acknowledgement there oneofsix.

I'll never state that every accident is avoidable, I know that from personal experience and from sheer logic. But what I will ask riders to do (not that what I have to say carries any weight for others, I'm not some expert on riding, I'm not about to write a book with riding tips) is ride with the mindset that they are ultimately responsible for their own safety, not a collection of random strangers. Ride like that and BELIEVE you can escape every accident, and it will increase your chances of survival. That's all I want, less motorcyclists being hit.

Grubber mentioned the fault word, that word to me as a motorcyclist is one I choose not to use. Because whose fault it is doesn't matter when you're discussing riding. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort when lying on the side of the road while the driver of the car whose fault it was surveys the dent to his guard. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort as you are transported to hospital while the car driver receives a ticket for careless use causing injury before they drive home for dinner. Not being at fault doesn't give much comfort while you spend the next 4 weeks in hospital, while the driver who was at fault goes about his/her normal life. Sure, there will be times when it's not our fault. But please please ride like your life depends on it, because as a motorcyclist it does. Car drivers rarely die in bike vs car accidents, regardless of who is at fault. Whereas motorcyclists very often die or get seriously injured.

I'm not trying to be a party pooper. I'm not trying to say we are always to blame. I'm not saying I'm perfect. I'm just trying to ask that motorcyclists take responsibility 100% of the time for their own safety. That means things like James Deuce said, observe the cars around you. The person in the nicely restored classic car is most likely aware of his surroundings. The fat lady with two children in her battered VL commodore no doubt isn't. The guy driving the late model merc has extensive insurance and a business deal to concentrate on. The guy in the 4wd on a lift kit with mud plastered everywhere thinks he is unstoppable on the road. The guy driving the furniture delivery truck is thinking about quitting his no-end job but that would mean spending more time at home with his fat ugly moaning girlfriend. The list goes on, and they are all generalisations, but you need to make yourself aware of these, and very quickly too. Better to be safe than sorry.

It goes on. Don't lane split at speed, someone will pull out. In a dual lane road approaching an intersection, where one lane has more traffic stopped than the other, don't ride up the free lane at speed, some tired motorist will get impatient and finally decide to take the more free lane. Traffic on the side of the road, look for movement, forwards or backwards, that's a warning signal. Wheels pointing towards the road? Expect them to do a u-turn or pull into the flow of traffic. Cars parked on the road side outside a park? Expect tired parents with screaming kids wanting an ice cream to pull out.

I could go on forever about hazard awareness. In my defensive driving course 20yrs ago we had to identify effing traffic poles as hazards, not because we could crash into them, but because they could just fall over in front of us. Likely? Not really. But there is a lesson in that itself.

I will add, despite my few offs in my riding career I have never been hit by a car in town or the open road.

[ducatilover]

What about the right front wheel turned to right lock?

I have seen some U-turning wombles wait 'till they're moving before the hook it right.
But, never trust anyone on the side of the road

[Katman]

I have seen some U-turning wombles wait 'till they're moving before the hook it right.
But, never trust anyone on the side of the road

So if they're moving they're an immediate hazard to be aware of.

[ducatilover]

So if they're moving they're an immediate hazard to be aware of.

Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.

I'll probably get flattened by one, I'm considered blind in my left eye

[Grubber]

Yes, heaven forbid that we should expect motorcyclists to exercise their brains while riding.

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????

[Katman]

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????

It's not a case of knowing what they're thinking, it's a case of trying to figure out what they're thinking.

[Katman]

Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.

I'll probably get flattened by one, I'm considered blind in my left eye

Approach with caution, positioning yourself closer to the centre line and when you're at the point of no return be prepared to swerve onto the other side of the road (they're not likely to be doing a U-turn if traffic is coming the other way) and accelerate past if necessary.

If there's any doubt as to whether they're aware of you approaching, use your horn. Contrary to popular belief, horns aren't fitted to vehicles as a "fuck you" device.

[Grubber]

You guys (oneofsix, grubber) are arguing from your current knowledge and skill base. You're kind of ignoring the fact that you improve as you gain experience and knowlwedge, IF you have the right mindset and you learn to identify clueless road users and hazards simply by glancing at them. This improvement is infinite in scope, at least until you shuffle off, or decide you're not up for riding a bike any more.

Your subconcious is really good at compiling experience into implicit knowledge and if you actively seek to develop the correct habits and modify those over time as necessary, your subconcious will look at the dirty Nissan Primera with the large middle age woman driving, a car which is dirty, has mismatched tyres, a broken indicator lense, and rubbish poking up above the level of the windows and will identify that vehicle as being piloted by someone who won't see you and won't have any regard for your safety - if you've had the same experiences I've had. You will note the driver parallel to you on the motorway two lanes over and slightly behind you but not in your mirrors, your peripheral vision will send a message to habitual response centre and you'll accelerate out of harm's way before they try to occupy your space with no indication or warning. An exercised subconsious will identify these risks almost instantly.

Try to be a bit more open-minded about this topic. It isn't definable as having predictable outcomes or an end-state of competence, nor will you operate at the same skill and knowledge level your whole life. If you do, you'll keep having the same problems over and over.

I agree with nearly all of this. to the point where i have learnt over the years that all is never as it seems.
I think we all should know that it is not desirable to judge a book by it's cover. There is plenty of people out there that drive the best of cars with the shiniest of wheels etc that do in fact drive like a moron. this includes bike riders. You can judge the best you can, but it will never eliminate the exact idiot or the human error that we are all capable of at any time.
I sit here and tell you that i have only had 2 accidents in my riding time of nearly 35 years and yes i do know my awareness skills are right up there. This does not automatically exempt me from a fuckup.
Sub concious skills are also not infallible.
Not saying we all shouldn't be trying really hard though.

[Grubber]

It's not a case of knowing what they're thinking, it's a case of trying to figure out what they're thinking.

Oh fuck me!! If you can figure out what they are thinking, then you kinda do know what they are thinking perhaps don't you. Same difference really, except you have some weird way of putting it in a sentence.
End of the day, you are never going to know what the fuck they are thinking. Thats a fact you can't deny, unless your telepathic of coarse.

[Katman]

Oh fuck me!! If you can figure out what they are thinking, then you kinda do know what they are thinking perhaps don't you. Same difference really, except you have some weird way of putting it in a sentence.
End of the day, you are never going to know what the fuck they are thinking. Thats a fact you can't deny, unless your telepathic of coarse.

The very fact that you're trying to figure out what they're thinking means your brain is working - which gives you a greater chance of taking adequate evasive action if necessary.





But feel free to continue making yourself look stupid if you wish.

[oneofsix]

Jeez Dude.... read it properly.
I didn't say anything about us not using OUR brains, it was about trying to know what the car drivers brains were up to. sheesh, how did you extract that from what i said????

none so blind ....
He is good at slicing and dicing what you say to extract a tiny bit he can then misrepresent. He is a real exspurt