How hard can it be?

[Katman]

but i also wouldn't say we can avoid 90% of riders accidents by thinking for other people

Who ever said we had to?

A shit load of those "90% of rider's accidents" don't even involve another vehicle.

Can you see how your inability to comprehend basic English puts your argument at a disadvantage right from the outset?

[Ocean1]

I'm not even going to define the two sides of this arguement. Yes, it's true that most accidents may have been avoided by behaving differently. It's also true that experience makes for a steadily improving baseline of abilities useful in predicting the behavour of both our machines and other drivers.

Also, it's true that purposfully denying onself the "excuse" that not everything is under one's control will improve one's performance. In spite of this, if you genuinely think that all you've got to do to guarantee your safety is to maintain you're god-like powers of observation without blinking then that U-turning sedan 20ft beyond the wet steel manhole cover is going to come as something of a shock.

Also: understand that different people, with different experience bases will have potentially hugely different survival instincts / lore. I've followed JD, for example through some reasonably brisk riding, and he's very smooth, his lines and general bike attitudes very repeatable wrt similar situations, I'd recognise him at a distance in two seconds. They're also quite different to mine, we're different people, informed by learning from different riding backgrounds.

He's better than me in so much as he'd get more out of a bike than I would. That doesn't make my "lore" less valid. So while I'd listen to suggestions about how to get a tenth of a second earlier look through a corner, I'd take a dim view if he tried to suggest I my own survival mechansims and techniques were innefective shit. For example, if an advanced riding trainer told me to put the centreline of my front wheel on the edge of the yellow line on a blind right hander I'd cheerfully tell him to fuck right off. On the other hand he'd probably frown at my poor native ballance skills. Different lore.

Nothing is learned as hard as knowledge based on your own experiences, and that makes the pain of early mistakes valuable. But amongst the general opinionated shit in this thread there are several actual instances of suggestions to do with good roadcraft. Stuff that finds an echo amongst my own thoughts. Wouldn't it be fucking loverly if there was more roadcraft tips discussed, and less bullshit?

[Katman]

In spite of this, if you genuinely think that all you've got to do to guarantee your safety is to maintain you're god-like powers of observation without blinking then that U-turning sedan 20ft beyond the wet steel manhole cover is going to come as something of a shock.

Thanks for the warning.

I'll look out for it.

[Grubber]

The very fact that you're trying to figure out what they're thinking means your brain is working - which gives you a greater chance of taking adequate evasive action if necessary.





But feel free to continue making yourself look stupid if you wish.

Down to name calling now are we???
So how much time would you like me to spend figuring out what they are THINKING before i run into something else.
Don't you think (maybe you don't)that it would be quite time consuming focussing on what you THINK the other road user may be THINKING.
Does anyone else see the funny side of this conversation or is it just me who seems to think it's like talking to a teenager here.

[swbarnett]

...hmmm, I don't remember seeing you guys there (You could have at least helped me get PhatGirl back on the road!...fat bitch got bogged in the mud! )

To be fair to all the drivers involved, the conditions were absolutely atrocious!, ....

I'm not saying that what the car in front did was in any way sensible. If all they were doing was looking at the hail then it was downright stupid. However, a stationary car cannot be held responsible for being rear-ended (no matter how fast they stopped).

I've been in situations like you describe where visibility falls to nothing in a matter of secods (or less). The weather only becomes a contributing factor to a collision if the following distances are too small (as is the case almost all the time in Auckland).

It occurrs to me that you managed to stop in time. Surely that at least implies that the ute should've been able to as well? Especially when the car they had to stop for wasn't even the vehicle directly in front of them.

[Katman]

Don't you think (maybe you don't)that it would be quite time consuming focussing on what you THINK the other road user may be THINKING.

Only if ones brain operated as slowly as yours appears to.

[swbarnett]

Yes.

What people are trying to get at here is, when you're more or less beside one and they suddenly hook it out.

I've had this happen. That's what the throttle is for. Just slide left and move like the devil himself is after you.

[Grubber]

Only if ones brain operated as slowly as yours appears to.

There ya go again with the personal insults.
Usually a sign of low intelligence I've been told. Seems to ring true in this case, judging by the previous statements in this thread.
Give us a shout when you come up with something a little more substantial.

[blue rider]

Wouldn't it be fucking loverly if there was more roadcraft tips discussed, and less bullshit?

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my

[Ocean1]

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my

When coming to a stop at the lights in the middle of town wearing 32" flared Levis always make sure it's your left foot that goes down.

[James Deuce]

Most definitely don't try to put your foot down with the kick start up your trouser leg.

[Ocean1]

yes please......it would not only loverly, but educational....oh my

When coming to a stop at the lights in the middle of town wearing 32" flared Levis always make sure it's your left foot that goes down.

That's bullshit too, innit.

It's difficult to know how much is obvious, not worth mentioning, and what's usefull.

OK. For me what makes up the largest part of the most usefull bit is this: You are the centre of a sphere of potential hazards. Your objective is to put as much time or distance between each hazard and yourself. The more likely and/or more serious the hazards the greater the distance you should plan to be from it.

The first thing you need to make this work is an excellent perception of potential hazards. This is the facility that most of the crusty old fuckers bang on about, it takes lots of practice but in essence it's just a self-taught refinement of your normal human focus on your surroundings. Picture yourself naked and alone in a wildlife park at night, get the picture?

To learn this, develop the habit of picturing in your mind an actual hazard map of your immediate surroundings. Add hazards that might occur or arrive within the next few seconds. If you could record the map an experienced rider might have in his head at any time it would certainly include a great deal more detail than that of a novice, and here's the funny thing: he probably couldn't tell you what some of them were, they're just subliminal feelings of anxiety eminating from a certain direction/time.

Hazards range from an unidentified small fuzzy patch on the road up ahead, (possible traction issue, drift 6" right), a cluster of signs on the roadside, (limited escape options in that direction, change line slightly to make another escape option work better), WRB centreline on a left hand curve, (change line from RH wheeltracks to LH wheeltracks) to more serious threats like that fucking great Semi sticking his nose out from the right at that intersection up ahead, (roll off throttle, drift left) or the sound of rubber sliding across asphalt behind you somewhere. What you do about each hazard becomes a far easier problem to deal with when you've spotted it several seconds before you get there.

I doubt there's ever just one hazard involved in an effective map, in fact there's a constant stream of them, so you're lines, gear, speed etc are constantly changing to balance them all. Funnily enough if you conciously work at it eventually you'll get pretty good at it. I suspect I miss several significant hazards every ride, but that's well better than your average commuter, and I'm still working on it...

[Geordie_Biker6]

Thank you people, for bringing this thread back on topic!!!

Beyond all the bullshit, mindgames, accusations, verbal attacks and finger pointing, this is about self improvement.

So, forget the past as it is such, look forward as to how we as individual bikers and as a community can help each other to improve various aspects of our riding. Do people know of any upcoming rider training? Are there more experienced riders willing to follow some less experienced riders out and share some tips and info? I think most importantly though, have you heard of Keith Code?!?!?!

I have his first book (Twist of the wrist) and it truly is the bikers bible. I also have the dvd of Twist of the wrist II. They are absolutely brilliant and i fully reccomend them. If you dont have a copy, go get one. I promise you it will be the best money you have ever spent!

[James Deuce]

Twist of the Wrist claims to embrace both road and track, but the reality is that it is a book about controlling your bike on a race track better and understanding the physics of riding a motorcycle really fast. It starts of talking about road and track and quickly drops any pretense of teaching road riders about threat management, whihc I view as the most important skill of riding on the road.

Keith Code is a genius. He's the first person to actively analyse his riding and break down into a teachable syllabus. There are elements you can steal for riding on the road, but Twist of the Wrist does not do a good job teaching anything about road riding habits. Brilliant tool for the track. Great way to get yourself really messed up on the road.

Before being kindly leant a bike to ride again, I read everything I could. Twist of the Wrist was up first, and it immediately struck me how much of my attention budget Mr Code was suggesting I apply to riding a bike. It was more than I felt was safe employing in a road environment, plus, and I think this is very important, there was no space for fun.

[Grubber]

Twist of the Wrist claims to embrace both road and track, but the reality is that it is a book about controlling your bike on a race track better and understanding the physics of riding a motorcycle really fast. It starts of talking about road and track and quickly drops any pretense of teaching road riders about threat management, whihc I view as the most important skill of riding on the road.

Keith Code is a genius. He's the first person to actively analyse his riding and break down into a teachable syllabus. There are elements you can steal for riding on the road, but Twist of the Wrist does not do a good job teaching anything about road riding habits. Brilliant tool for the track. Great way to get yourself really messed up on the road.

Before being kindly leant a bike to ride again, I read everything I could. Twist of the Wrist was up first, and it immediately struck me how much of my attention budget Mr Code was suggesting I apply to riding a bike. It was more than I felt was safe employing in a road environment, plus, and I think this is very important, there was no space for fun.

While i agree with your statements about the book, thus also goes for his dvd, if you do 1 or 2 levels of the superbike school you would find that it does in fact give you plenty of schooling towards visual aids. 3 point turns and seeing through the corners etc all contribute to being aware of your surroundings. I for one would recommend it and i have been riding for many years.
While the book does give you some vary valid ideas in this department, it doesn't cover it as well as it does when you do the coarse. I am about to do level 3 next weekend and would suggest you give it a try before you make your mind up totally. The teach you to scan far and wide ahead as you go.
There are other courses out there that also do a great job of developing awareness too i believe.
Having said that, there is also a lot to be said for seat time to develop these things while you ride also.
As for the fun aspect, that all comes later when you become more competent in riding. Once you have mastered a few of the essential skills involved in keeping upright you can then start enjoying it also. I believe it is more esential that we master the art of riding first so we can enjoy it later. Very much like getting a pilots licence perhaps, we wouldn't want someone flying us around without first doing the hard yards.