Considering a party

**Katman** · 12th February 2012, 07:11

Serious question SS.

How old are you?

With all due respect you sound like a teenager pretending to live in the growed ups world.

Idealism and realism are rarely one and the same.

**Scuba_Steve** · 12th February 2012, 07:56

Originally Posted by Genestho

SS. It looks like you're trolling and I'm far too sensible at times.

One more question before I retire from this thread.

With the amount of concern and work you propose to place upon yourself based on what you think 'we the people' or you, want - Have you ever bothered to get informed of the Bills or Acts currently in Parliament.

Have you ever watched what's coming next.
Have you ever followed a Bill from beginning to end, submitted your views at each stage and then followed through to select committee.

-I don't mean spending a second clicking an online petition with someone else's understanding on a Bill, heading it.
-I don't mean reading a news paper with cherry picked information and comments taken out of context with the flashy headlines.
-I don't mean going to a protest with a placard and chanting, I mean actually informing yourself.
EDIT - or writing on an internet forum in any form.

You might say democracy is BS here, I disagree.
I've seen it in action and it works if enough people bother to make the effort and follow through, yes it's a lot of work but far far less than what you think you could achieve, it also helps you grasp fact vs what somebody else says.

IMO you can't say democracy is BS, without actually using the system that allows us to have our say..
We have a system in place open to anyone that I've been shocked to see not many if any seem to use, which I believe to be to our detriment.

People say the Govt doesn't listen - well, what can they do if people don't bother to write their views where they'll be seen and paper-trailed.

The clanger is, you don't even have to be educated to do so.

So, have you ever..? If so: What. If not, why not?

Ain't no trollin' I am seriously thinking about running in the hopes to turn NZ into a democracy
I have used the system before (which is purposely setup to stop people from using it), for things I care about mainly roading & oppressive laws like the food bill, skynet, anti-smacking etc
That last one is a pure example of how democracy does not exist within NZ, the people choose they did not want this law the Govt ignored them as they have with a few others like decreasing the amount of politicians in parliament etc
Democracy does not exist & I want to bring it in

Originally Posted by Katman

Serious question SS.

How old are you?

With all due respect you sound like a teenager pretending to live in the growed ups world.

Idealism and realism are rarely one and the same.

Take the age your thinking, double it, add 5 & your probably about right

& my plan maybee too idealistic? I don't know, but you have to have the idealistic to have the realistic. Without it no-one gets anywhere

**Katman** · 12th February 2012, 08:10

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

Take the age your thinking, double it, add 5 & your probably about right

& my plan maybee too idealistic? I don't know, but you have to have the idealistic to have the realistic. Without it no-one gets anywhere

So you plan to create a 'real' democracy? One where the 'people' have the power?

So how are the people going to make decisions? By voting on everything?

So what happens when 60% want one thing and 40% want the other? The 60% get their way?

What happens when the 40% say "fuck that, there's almost as many of us as there is them. They'll have to fight us to make us comply".

What happens when 20% want one thing, 20% want another thing, 30% want something else, and 30% want it to stay the same?

The reality is, that a country needs someone at the top to say "this is the way it's going to be". If the country don't like it they periodically get to vote that person out.

Placing full power in the hands of the people is only likely to result in anarchy.

**Bikemad** · 12th February 2012, 09:38

Originally Posted by Katman

Placing full power in the hands of the people is only likely to result in anarchy.

how do the Swiss get by...........don't they run a Referendum type system of Govt there?..........just curious
and when and where is the pissup gonna be SS

**Pussy** · 12th February 2012, 09:44

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

Democracy does not exist & I want to bring it in

Errr... Didn't the majority of voters in the last election get the result they wanted??

**paturoa** · 12th February 2012, 11:59

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

Laws (anything affecting NZ) will be decided upon by NZ.

I'm not explaining myself - what is the mechanism? eg on-line referendums for everything? How do I as a citizen make the choice.

Also to my policy question, those too.

I suspect that I'd have to be spending 80% of my awake hours trawling everything, otherwise the motivated minorities would be the only ones botherred to "vote", hence trashing the whole democracy thing.

**Scuba_Steve** · 12th February 2012, 14:45

Originally Posted by Katman

So you plan to create a 'real' democracy? One where the 'people' have the power?

So how are the people going to make decisions? By voting on everything?

So what happens when 60% want one thing and 40% want the other? The 60% get their way?

What happens when the 40% say "fuck that, there's almost as many of us as there is them. They'll have to fight us to make us comply".

What happens when 20% want one thing, 20% want another thing, 30% want something else, and 30% want it to stay the same?

The reality is, that a country needs someone at the top to say "this is the way it's going to be". If the country don't like it they periodically get to vote that person out.

Placing full power in the hands of the people is only likely to result in anarchy.

These are the sort of arguments put forth to create dictatorship
The country is quite capable of running itself and yes the system will be majority rule but it'll be a 60/40 split i.e. you will have to breach the 60% threshold for the change to take place

Originally Posted by Bikemad

how do the Swiss get by...........don't they run a Referendum type system of Govt there?..........just curious
and when and where is the pissup gonna be SS

Yes the swiss are closer to democracy than most others, and if I were to fail at the very least thats where I'd like to fall as for the pissup that'll come about if I decide to run but you'll have to make your way down here for it

Originally Posted by Pussy

Errr... Didn't the majority of voters in the last election get the result they wanted??

No

Originally Posted by paturoa

I'm not explaining myself - what is the mechanism? eg on-line referendums for everything? How do I as a citizen make the choice.

Also to my policy question, those too.

I suspect that I'd have to be spending 80% of my awake hours trawling everything, otherwise the motivated minorities would be the only ones botherred to "vote", hence trashing the whole democracy thing.

yes online votes it's quick, it's efficient (yes there will be remote kiosks for those without interwebs etc) its "cheap"
laws will be human readable you won't have to spend major amounts of time trolling through everything new just to get a grasp of it. They will be simple & precise (lawyers may not like this so much tho)

**Pussy** · 12th February 2012, 15:05

Originally Posted by Pussy

Errr... Didn't the majority of voters in the last election get the result they wanted??

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

No

You're sadly mistaken.
Just because YOU didn't get what YOU wanted, doesn't mean to say that the majority didn't.

**Katman** · 12th February 2012, 15:12

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

These are the sort of arguments put forth to create dictatorship
The country is quite capable of running itself and yes the system will be majority rule but it'll be a 60/40 split i.e. you will have to breach the 60% threshold for the change to take place

The majority of me wants to treat you as a complete joke but I'll allow the softer side of me to have it's say.

You'd be far better off picking a subject that you believe New Zealand to be passionate about and lead a highly publicised event focusing attention on it.

Google 'Kiwis Care March' or 'Tania Harris' to see what can be achieved by someone who understands the general feeling of the population. (Bear in mind that the march in 1981 was before the time of the internet or the mobile phone).

Achieve something like that and you might just be worthy of some credibility.

**Katman** · 12th February 2012, 15:34

Now for the other side of me........

If I could be arsed trawling through all your previous posts I could produce a book of quotes that would show you as totally unsuitable to lead a game of charades, let alone a country.

**Scuba_Steve** · 12th February 2012, 16:43

Originally Posted by Pussy

You're sadly mistaken.
Just because YOU didn't get what YOU wanted, doesn't mean to say that the majority didn't.

Umm maybee you should go rethink your statements. Really rethink them...

Originally Posted by Katman

Now for the other side of me........

If I could be arsed trawling through all your previous posts I could produce a book of quotes that would show you as totally unsuitable to lead a game of charades, let alone a country.

says one of the most ignored people on KB. You know nothing of my ability to lead, all you'd be pulling out is my anti speed scam opinions & dislike of oppression. Nothing to do with any ability to lead

Oh & FYI I wouldn't be doing it alone, like every-other party I would need a few. John Key is only a face, he alone does not decide. The big corporations behind him do.

**Katman** · 12th February 2012, 16:47

Originally Posted by Scuba_Steve

says one of the most ignored people on KB. You know nothing of my ability to lead, all you'd be pulling out is my anti speed scam opinions & dislike of oppression. Nothing to do with any ability to lead

Oh & FYI I wouldn't be doing it alone, like every-other party I would need a few. John Key is only a face, he alone does not decide. The big corporations behind him do.

Ok then.

You're a fucking joke.