Welfare support and drug testing

[Paul in NZ]

Sigh – here we go again, arguing about the silly stuff and not looking at the big picture.

The crazy free market job market has delivered us a lot of service level jobs that pay bugger all, have unsociable hours and are often less than 40 hours. These used to be entry level jobs but are now rapidly becoming career spanning ones. Lots of these jobs at (say) The Warehouse or Pak n Save now require staff to pass a drug test. Given that these jobs are pretty damn god awful its no great shock that the holders of these positions seek to lighten the load with a smoke / drink.

What’s not so great is that the line between work and non work activity became a bit blurred for a few and many ended up impaired at work. If you are working night fill at a supermarket there is limited supervision so chances of being caught were low. Because a fair few of these people have to use knives, ladders, box crushers and forklifts etc, accidents increase and they become expensive. It costs companies big bucks in ACC payments if they have a poor work safety record but there is a limited amount they can do in some cases. This is something obvious so they do it. That expense gets passed onto me when I buy my groceries and I'm not a fan of that.

Then we get into the dangerous jobs like power line mechanic etc. Even a tyre fitter. Would you want someone impair changing your tyres?

People seeking work (and you would only seek supermarket work if you didn’t have anything else) need to meet the criteria and that includes being drug and alcohol free. WINZ get fed up sending people for interviews only for them to miss out on something stupid like that. Its fair enough I reckon. Its not bashing anyone its just setting a criteria (much like a job) – you want a job seeker allowance?– here’s what you have to do to qualify!

If you want to live a life full of smoking da ‘erb and drinking, fine – just make sure you can afford it first thanks. Much like if I want a nice motorcycle, I expect to have to work to afford to pay for my luxury item. We live in a free society but that means you are free to make your own destiny – not live for free.

The shame of it is that while I like progress – we were probably a lot better off in the 60’s…

What I'd rather see is some kind of social WoF. You pay taxes for x years you get a credit, You stay clean, legit and look after your kids etc you get a credit. Those credits can be cashed in when you retire etc.

[sidecar bob]

Some fuckin rocket scientist on here now rekons he'd be happy to have a toke with a brain surgeon before he operated on him.
If that's not enough evidence that pot fucks your brain, then I give up.

[skippa1]

Some fuckin rocket scientist on here now rekons he'd be happy to have a toke with a brain surgeon before he operated on him.
If that's not enough evidence that pot fucks your brain, then I give up.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sidecar bob again.

[imdying]

I read the book, in some areas id say extremely so.
Paticularly in the area of social interaction & what he deemed to be normal behaviour towards others.

Your weasel words make the point, thank you.

[imdying]

There is this whole attitude coming through that there is a right to use drugs in NZ.
Theyre fucking illegal, if people hadnt actually noticed, so why should the government currently be funding a bunch of dropkicks that are in breach of the country's law? Chuck them off the bene now.
There are plenty of countries where you would be locked up for a long time, or even shot by firing squad for possesion of a tinnie.
Those of you who disagree didnt read yesterday's Hearald.

You are such a fucking moron it's really too easy. There's countries that cut your clit off just for being a woman... and???? You want to follow them too??? Drugs are legal in New Zealand you muppet, but I don't see them suggesting testing beneficiaries for booze. Mind you, if dope growers were one of the puppet masters and not the breweries, then the reverse would be true... Not only that, your weak little mind would also be regurgitating their new propaganda because that's what the government has told you is right, so it must be. People like you who fail to be able to think for themselves make me puke... but I guess you're just following orders... not your fault...

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

[Paul in NZ]

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

These kids are already being hurt. Its arguable that the parents living poorly are victims of the old lax ways.

At some point reality shifted - its not acceptable to live like this at the moment. Remember that this version of the welfare state is just one. The rules change all the time as it changes to meet the times. If you don't want to be a victim of it - opt out and get a better job.

[imdying]

These kids are already being hurt. Its arguable that the parents living poorly are victims of the old lax ways.

I agree, but I don't think that giving them another kick in the face is going to serve us or them very well.

[sidecar bob]

I consider myself severley scolded & corrected for my ignorance. So drugs ARE legal in NZ & stopping people taking them is comparable to cutting a womans clit off? Riiiiight, just more evidence that drugs fuck you up.

[Paul in NZ]

I agree, but I don't think that giving them another kick in the face is going to serve us or them very well.

At some point you have to draw a line. I'd be happier if some kind of assistance is given in the advent of a failed test of course. Not as some kind of whack social engineering thing but as an attempt to scaffold a reasonable compromise.

[avgas]

Drugs are bad. Ok whores

[skippa1]

You are such a fucking moron it's really too easy. There's countries that cut your clit off just for being a woman... and???? You want to follow them too??? Drugs are legal in New Zealand you muppet, but I don't see them suggesting testing beneficiaries for booze. Mind you, if dope growers were one of the puppet masters and not the breweries, then the reverse would be true... Not only that, your weak little mind would also be regurgitating their new propaganda because that's what the government has told you is right, so it must be. People like you who fail to be able to think for themselves make me puke... but I guess you're just following orders... not your fault...

The reality is, which you conveniently ignore, is that this law will hurt children and society, not people you hate so much.

Thats the whole trouble right there......what you just said. You try to dress the whole mess up as drugs vs alchohol, government propoganda, brewery giant control in an effort to justify a position wherby you dont have to do anything and your quiet Saturday night smoke will be legal. Youre a minority pal and you are a minority because if your opinion mattered and you were right, the general NZ masses would be looking to the cannibis party for guidance. The best argument you have is that the bulk of NZ's are mislead by the government or the breweries and we are singing their message??? You want to lay off that poo you smoke.

Kids are being killed by drop kick parents that are on drug and alchohol binges that are paid for by the taxpayer. This is happening at a hideous rate. 11 and 12 year olds are being caught at school with dope they stole from their parents. Thats whats hurting children, and you condone it with the words you speak.

[oneofsix]

If you don't want to be a victim of it - opt out and get a better job.

Many of them spend many years wishing it was that easy then they give up and give in to the drugs, others are "smarter" and learn from those that have tried and failed. Many leave school as failures, not because they can't obtain some sort of NCEA result but because their skills and talents aren't considered worthy especially if your skills are in the old manual subjects. Sorry shouldn't have watched that Sunday segment on Greene and how he was giving ids self belief through a blacksmithing course which, of course, has now been basically canned.


As you were, keep kicking them whilst they are down.

[imdying]

At some point you have to draw a line. I'd be happier if some kind of assistance is given in the advent of a failed test of course. Not as some kind of whack social engineering thing but as an attempt to scaffold a reasonable compromise.

Yeah, can't disagree with that either. My preference would be for the bulk of any money to be invested into research so we can figure out what the root cause is, and maybe even find a solution. Some people can quite happily toke up every night, and never miss a day of work.. some people toke up when they can, and put all their efforts into sorting out their next fix, and run their lives around it, never working. The same with drinking. The same with gambling.

What is it that causes these two completely different personalities (and the huge range of variance in between)? My personal assumption is that it's something to do with addiction, presumably generated by the chemicals in the brain. If it is, and we can identify it, can we help these people? Should it be compulsory? Do we even have the right to? Should people not be allowed to be who they are?

Is not paying tax really that bad? Does anywhere in the world need to follow this insatiable lust for 'progress' above everything else? Are we really that much happier/better off now that we have 300km/h sport bikes for all instead of horses? Is money really that important? Are we trapped in a cycle we can't get out of because the whole world is following the same unsustainable path? What happens when we reach the logical conclusion... the inability of the world to progress in it's rampant desire for growth...? Ok, so obviously we'll do what we always do... slaughter millions so we can start the cycle again... but I just can't understand how that is a good thing.

I'm not convinced that somebody living a life getting high all day and doing so off my hard work, is my enemy. Sure they're an enemy to societal norms, but I'm yet to be convinced that society is even vaguely heading in the right direction, or to be frank, ever will be.

[imdying]

Thats the whole trouble right there......what you just said. You try to dress the whole mess up as drugs vs alchohol, government propoganda, brewery giant control in an effort to justify a position wherby you dont have to do anything and your quiet Saturday night smoke will be legal. Youre a minority pal and you are a minority because if your opinion mattered and you were right, the general NZ masses would be looking to the cannibis party for guidance. The best argument you have is that the bulk of NZ's are mislead by the government or the breweries and we are singing their message??? You want to lay off that poo you smoke.

Kids are being killed by drop kick parents that are on drug and alchohol binges that are paid for by the taxpayer. This is happening at a hideous rate. 11 and 12 year olds are being caught at school with dope they stole from their parents. Thats whats hurting children, and you condone it with the words you speak.

I think your simplistic attitude to societies problems is far more likely to compound the problem without really addressing what the real causes are than my words, but that's only one opinion, and you are of course entitled to it. That we're talking about it all does provide some glimmer of hope for the future though I guess.

[imdying]

Many of them spend many years wishing it was that easy then they give up and give in to the drugs, others are "smarter" and learn from those that have tried and failed. Many leave school as failures, not because they can't obtain some sort of NCEA result but because their skills and talents aren't considered worthy especially if your skills are in the old manual subjects. Sorry shouldn't have watched that Sunday segment on Greene and how he was giving ids self belief through a blacksmithing course which, of course, has now been basically canned.


As you were, keep kicking them whilst they are down.

We're all told that the goal is to work, have a family, and be a good little member of society. But that doesn't work for everybody, it doesn't give them any inner peace to be a productive little drone. I don't know how to help those people, we collectively, don't know either. Those that have the power have split loyalties between pandering to the majority and helping the minority, and that's never going to work. But what can be done? Is there a way to celebrate our differences and live in harmony? I have pretty grave fears for the human races ability to do that... we've never managed it before, and we're definitely not heading down a path that will take us to that place. Lets have another war... that's always worked out well in the past