ESE's works engine tuner

[bucketracer]

I am sure that this has already been covered guys, but 210 pages of this is just too much to read through.

I am not sure about the O2 sensor thing .....

But there are other ways of finding interesting posts without having to flick through all the pages.

On most decade pages 100 110 120 130 Etc ..... there is a links or interesting post collection.

Page 500 has a bit of an index and links to how to get 28-30 hp from a 125.

And if you use thread tools you can trawl through all the thousands of pictures on the ESE thread which then lead to the relevant post.

[husaberg]

I am not sure about the O2 sensor thing .....

But there are other ways of finding interesting posts without having to flick through all the pages.

On most decade pages 100 110 120 130 Etc ..... there is a links or interesting post collection.

Page 500 has a bit of an index and links to how to get 28-30 hp from a 125.

And if you use thread tools you can trawl through all the thousands of pictures on the ESE thread which then lead to the relevant post.

Or you the thread search for key words.
From memory Cagiva definitely did on the injected bike maybe lambda probe (whoops wob said it was a EGT) there is a site i have seen that details doing a diy one on a (NSR125 i think). I will see if i can find it. I would guess at least it will have to be the heated 3 wire type and i guess the life expectancy will be short esp with dirty combustion and lead fuels but i know f all.

[Bren_chch]

chur! i am building one of these fancy engines... i cant understand why more havent! all the info is here and elsewhere.

cheers ese

[husaberg]

I found the article it looks like the page may be dead i will see if i can put the text into a word file not as in depth as i hoped.
I will try to find the page though.

[wobbly]

Lambda is not a reliable tool for any length of time in a 2T.
The heated ones last a bit longer but no matter what probe type is used they get contaminated and dont read correctly in a very short time frame.
EGT is very simple.If you find peak power at say 1240* ,and know what the RAD was on the dyno,then its easy to construct a jetting pattern.
Every 3% rad = 1 jet size in a Kehin or Dellorto that use metric sized jet holes.
Always start on the rich side and jet down to the set EGT.
Best example I can give was at Vegas World Kart Champs.
In practice we went down one or two jets every run - as long as we saw a temp rise around 50* per jet,and the ground strap mark was clean at 3/4 length, then we were making more power.
At RAD 101 we had 1260, going one more only raised egt about 20* so NFG going there.
This was a 162 jet before we changed.
On qualifying morning it was cool and RAD104 - up one jet to 165 and we saw 1255 - on the money, qualified 2nd by 0.003 sec.
First race after lunch was RAD98, down 2 jets, won the first heat easily and saw 1265* and immediately were accused of cheating,for blitzing the Yank Champ down the shute..
He hadnt jetted down enough for the hot afternoon RAD change.
Its that simple,once you have a baseline.
You can use the egt and the CHT as well, but thats another story.

[husaberg]

Lambda is not a reliable tool for any length of time in a 2T.
The heated ones last a bit longer but no matter what probe type is used they get contaminated and dont read correctly in a very short time frame.
EGT is very simple.If you find peak power at say 1240* ,and know what the RAD was on the dyno,then its easy to construct a jetting pattern.
Every 3% rad = 1 jet size in a Kehin or Dellorto that use metric sized jet holes.
Always start on the rich side and jet down to the set EGT.
Best example I can give was at Vegas World Kart Champs.
In practice we went down one or two jets every run - as long as we saw a temp rise around 50* per jet,and the ground strap mark was clean at 3/4 length, then we were making more power.
At RAD 101 we had 1260, going one more only raised egt about 20* so NFG going there.
This was a 162 jet before we changed.
On qualifying morning it was cool and RAD104 - up one jet to 165 and we saw 1255 - on the money, qualified 2nd by 0.003 sec.
First race after lunch was RAD98, down 2 jets, won the first heat easily and saw 1265* and immediately were accused of cheating,for blitzing the Yank Champ down the shute..
He hadnt jetted down enough for the hot afternoon RAD change.
Its that simple,once you have a baseline.
You can use the egt and the CHT as well, but thats another story.

What EGT do you use Wob

Seen this (Below)it sounded when i was looking at EGTs it and looked familar when i was reading it well i get to the end and i see why (recycled Gorr)
http://twostrokemotocross.com/2009/1...ry-and-tuning/

[dmcca]

I'm glad the discussion has come back to egt, etc... My new digatron data logger just arrived!

Any specific tips for tuning with egt and cht? Ive read as much as I can find but if anyone has any words of wisdom I'm all ears...

[Haufen]

Lambda is not a reliable tool for any length of time in a 2T.
The heated ones last a bit longer but no matter what probe type is used they get contaminated and dont read correctly in a very short time frame.

You can get heated probes to last pretty long if you connect them to the exhaust via a small metal tubing that is welded to the exhaust and a high temp silicone hose which reaches from the tube to the probe. Have you tried this, yet?

[wobbly]

Have tried the remote hose to the Lambda thing and although the probe lasted better it was slow responding.to the extent that it is impossible to log the Lambda
output against rpm/Hp on the printout.
The reading I think was about 2000 rpm behind the engine when accelerating at 300 rpm/sec.
Dynojet has an expensive add on kit that uses a pump to draw the gas thru a tube that goes in the muffler, this has a filter element in it so should make the probe reliable.
But it doesnt work on a 2T - even apart from having something affecting the test by altering the outlet area of the muffler itself..
I have seen one Dynojet session where the customer had to pay for 2 probes in a 4 hour test cycle. NFG.

Re using EGT and CHT.
The only probes that are worth shit come from Exhaust Gas Technologies.They guarantee them for 2 years,and I have had no problems since changing to them.
They sell probes to Nascar/IRL/F1/MotoGP teams with a guarantee - the only guys to do this with exposed tip,high speed temp sensors.
The company sells Digatron gauges on Ebay,and having just started to use one with 2 screens and 5 functions - im sold.
The ones sold by Mychron etc for kart use are crap, seen several brand new setup last two laps.

Using the two gauges together,especially if you have say a Digitron data logging gauge,makes jetting much easyer.
Basically when the jets are rich, both egt and cht will rise then fall together,when doing a full throttle all gear run.
You can keep dropping jets and be sure that all is well as long as they both rise together - with the one caveat I stated above.
One Keihin main jet size should lift the egt around 50*F, if you only get 20* rise from a previous jet then what is happening is this.
There is only "x" amount of energy in the fuel ingested.This can end up in the trapped,expanding gas - making power.
It can end up in the water, via the head and cylinder wall,and depending upon the com or ignition point,alot simply exits the port and heats up the pipe.
BUT - as soon as you go overly lean,the combustion pressure/temp gets to a point where instead of heating the combustion charge, the flame front starts creating free radicals.
This uses a huge amount of the available energy,and instantly the egt drops.
Once free radicals have formed,they keep the process going,causing destructive deto to get worse and worse - thus the egt drops thru the floor.
You need exposed tip,fast probes to see this quick enough to save the engine.

Thus on the gauge,the CHT keeps rising fast,but the EGT slows and can drop down again.
In the above example I gave, the egt only rising 20*F pointed instantly to the fact that we were approaching deto point.
By watching the two temps track upwards together it is real easy to get a handle on what the engine wants, to make peak power - just short of deto.

[dmcca]

Great info wobbly, thank you again!

I got the 4 screen digatron and will be logging egt, cht, water temp, air temp and rpm so there's going to be plenty of data for me to study and learn from... How reliable though is cht on a water cooled engine? I'm guessing that all the same patterns will be there just dulled a bit due to the cooling and using cht alone once the main tuning is done to keep an eye on things is a no no.

I'm planning on studying the data and playing with jetting for a while to learn how my bike responds to a range of situations... Then I've got an ecotrons EFI kit and one of their AFR gauges coming, should be here in the next day or so... I will 'attempt' to convert it to EFI with a few modifications to their kit. Hopefully i can use the data gathered from the carb setup as something to aim for when creating the fuel maps in order to get it running initially, then tune further from there. I'll save the AFR for when the tuning is almost finished. Should keep me busy (and send me slightly insane) for a while. Worst case is that there will be a cheap efi kit on eBay soon and I'll be rebuilding my engine... again.

[wobbly]

CHT is dead accurate on a watercooled head as far as the rising temp is concerned.
The washer reads the heat load into the plug,its a bit slower than on an air cooled engine but the data is still valid.
More important is the fast response needed for EGT tracking,so you see immediately the temp slowing and then dropping when deto sets in.

The A/F meter is no different than the Lamda readout - the sensor soon dies due to contamination of the sensing surface.NFG.

The last injection setup I worked on we built an interface for the ECU that converted the EGT reading to the Lambda scale that the computer recognised.
This worked well on a Jetski setup,that is usuall all go or none.

[wax]

Wobbly you seem to like the digatron, Im running a mychron 4 with gps data logging etc. Its a two temp I use it to do egt as well as water temp as far as temps are concerend.
Have you played with these gauges at all, why do you prefer the dgiatron over them

[F5 Dave]

. . ..If you find peak power at say 1240* ,and know what the RAD was on the dyno,then its easy to construct a jetting pattern.
. . . - as long as we saw a temp rise around 50* per jet,and the ground strap mark was clean at 3/4 length, then we were making more power.
At RAD 101 we had 1260, going one more only raised egt about 20* so NFG going there.
. . . .

Great description, but I'm a little confused. So on the dyno you saw 1240deg at peak power. I would have thought at that time you would err on the lower side of the temp.

But are you saying that that calibrates the guage & you try get close to that & then keep goin up until it stops rising linear for that final bit?

At this stage presumably if you have a det guage or counter you could get away from needing a CHT perhaps?

[andersonv21]

Welp, I guess it is about time I contribute something to this forum...

Don't want to step on Wob's toes, but...

I have used a lot of the data loggers that are available (Motec, Aim, Digatron, Pi, CDS, Racepak) and...

The Mychron is a good starter setup, but if you decide to go beyond the basic logger and GPS, expansions are expensive and limited. I outgrew mine in a year... Most of the issues like Wob mentioned are actually just due to poor leads: user setup, and not properly strain relieved, yellow tc connectors not tight (yeah they come from the factory like that..) Easily fixed before you install with some silicone and shrink tubing. You don't have to have the Digatron to use the good open tip EGT's Wob mentioned, any logger with k-type will work. (And Yes, the open tip E.G.T. egt probes are as good as Wob says)

The best bang for your buck, full on data logging is without a doubt the AIM Evo4 (same guys as Mychron). Comes with the GPS, and has virtually unlimited expandability (number of channels). The best part is you can run whatever sensor your heart desires or can dream up (differential pressure for aero, ultrasonic distance, tire temps etc.) Price is close to the Mychron, gps, and an expansion module! And AIM has the most user friendly software I have used. If you want to get beyond the 3 basic temps, this is the ticket. Great stuff.

The only thing better is a full on Motec system, awesome stuff but WAY out of the price range for the average racer.

Haven't personally sorted out the lambda completely yet (only run it twice), but they can work, the snowmobile guys have been using them successfully for years. What I have learned so far is keep the pipe temp up and engine clean so the sensor temp can stay up and not foul. If it sees a real rich condition for an extended period of time (like warming up engine for dyno run maybe?) you'll have issues.

[wobbly]

I will reply later to the several questions on here, but for now im into a single malt bottle - the Superlight class rule change has been ratified.
So as soon as the glass is fitted, the RZ400 Aprilia will be at a track day.
Here is the dyno video of it being thrashed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TE9am_QCzwc&feature=plcp