Formula 450 for NZ?

[Fozzzy]

the 450s seem to be fine doing motard so they should be all good

[budda]

maybe my interpretation of this is wrong....

Possible specs would be,

ENGINES: Stock, Suspension including triple clamps and shock linkages: Open,

Frame and swing arm: Open, Bodywork: Open, Exhaust: Slip on only, Fuel: Pump gas only max octane 98

So thats Engine stock, exhuast slip on, everything else open? Sus? Frame? Swing Arm? Rims? am I correct?

Too sim to F3 and too many ways to spend money to make it more competitive within the rules.

The ORIGINAL proposal was stock ENGINES, FRAMES, SWINGARMS, RADIATORS, SUBFRAMES ...... Take your universal 450MXer, add shortened boingers, rearsets, clipons and bodywork - an afternoons work to convert your Jumping Bike to a Real Racer, or ( God knows why !!!! ) the other way. If neccessary, we could bring in a max HP ( say 58hp ) to keep build costs and reliability under some form of control. Could limit rim sizes to 3.5/4.5 ? Could outlaw CF etc etc too - but Herr Von Billingtons question was, is there any interest out there in developing the idea ?????

The rationale was a Class where EVERY Manufacturer has a suitable bike, the bikes are AVAILABLE, AFFORDABLE, light enough for the smaller/younger/lighter riders, adjustable enough for same Riders to LEARN something, appeal to the good old Kiwi "build yerself something" mentality, and if for some reason you dont like it, you A/ havent burnt a shitload of money and B/ the process is reversible for ease of resale

AND its a way of getting new blood into the Sport, as there are gazillions of MXers who run out of bones to break and walk ( well, Limp ) away without trying OUR adrenaline fix - even the older juniors who become disinterested when the Va JJ fairy waves her magic wand are potential competitors, and they ALL already have a bike, be it a 250 for "Kiwi Moto3 ", or a 450 for this .........

According to the Yanks ( who I have been in contact with for the last two years re this ), power to weight is approx the same as a Standard 600, so the yeeehaaa factor is still there - personally find it easier to find reasons for than against, but thats just me - hence Billys query

And lets not forget that EVERY current Mainstream Distributor has AT LEAST ONE eligible Competitive Bike - how can it be a bad thing to inject new commercial interest into our Sport ? Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?

These bikes are legal NOW, no need for any flash sets of rule changes - and once there is a decent core of 'em, a stand-alone Championship Class ?

[budda]

Add Lyndon from Boyds RMZ plus the CRF he did before that and Todd Ackroyds one makes four,Only problem I see is they are just not competitive at National level against our Superlite machinery,With their own class that may well change,Also they have just introduced them to formula xtreme in Aussie.

That RMZ Lyndon built was shit on a stick - a little outside the proposed rules, but a thing of beauty. Just needed a little dedicated fettling ( and some BRIDGESTONES ) and it would have embarrased even more than it did. And if I remember rightly, it wasnt built with a bottomless budget, rather used what he had available and some good old Kiwi ingenuity. Bloody good job

[lostinflyz]

if it were

- Stock motor (compression, cams, pistons, rods, crank), swingarm, radiators, subframe, rear linkage
- Open: exhaust, front forks, triples, brakes, rear sets, clip ons
- Limited mods: Wheels (alloy only) , rear shock std (but open mods), frame (must be original frame but open otherwise), mods to heads allowed (how do you control??), flywheels can be modified or removed, valves can be replaced but only for a different material, size must remain the same

make that class billy and ill build 2. anything much different will become a money pit and too much like superlite

[Bert]

The ORIGINAL proposal was stock ENGINES, FRAMES, SWINGARMS, RADIATORS, SUBFRAMES ......
Take your universal 450MXer, add shortened boingers, rearsets, clipons and bodywork - an afternoons work to convert your Jumping Bike to a Real Racer, or ( God knows why !!!! ) the other way. If neccessary, we could bring in a max HP ( say 58hp ) to keep build costs and reliability under some form of control. Could limit rim sizes to 3.5/4.5 ? Could outlaw CF etc etc too - but Herr Von Billingtons question was, is there any interest out there in developing the idea ?????

........be it a 250 for "Kiwi Moto3 ", or a 450 for this .........

According to the Yanks ( who I have been in contact with for the last two years re this ), power to weight is approx the same as a Standard 600, so the yeeehaaa factor is still there - personally find it easier to find reasons for than against, but thats just me - hence Billys query
........ Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?

Personally I think this is a cool concept (I've always liked the UK/Europe supermono concept). and loved watching Robert Holden on his little duck..
but why limit it to stock MX frames (you'd spend $$ getting the setup correct; not as simple as chucking in a set of road forks and smaller rear shock).....

I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another..

imagine a 450 in this.....

RichBan's fxr150 nsr bucket racer...

[budda]

Personally I think this is a cool concept (I've always liked the UK/Europe supermono concept). and loved watching Robert Holden on his little duck..
but why limit it to stock MX frames (you'd spend $$ getting the setup correct; not as simple as chucking in a set of road forks and smaller rear shock).....

I'm sure there would be a handful of bucket boys that would be open to slapping in a stock 450 into their flash as setups for shits and giggles. There must be a myriad of NSR/RGV/KR/tzr rolling frames sitting in sheds that could happily be used. Again one could do it in an evening swap out of one frame into another..

imagine a 450 in this.....
....
RichBan's fxr150 nsr bucket racer...

Dont neccessarily disagree - but have to point out that what you're describing is ALREADY legal, and no-ones doing it !!!!!!!
The Standard frame etc concept has only TWO purposes - 1/ to keep initial costs to a minimum, and 2/ make it easier to police

[Bert]

Dont neccessarily disagree - but have to point out that what you're describing is ALREADY legal, and no-ones doing it !!!!!!!
The Standard frame etc concept has only TWO purposes - 1/ to keep initial costs to a minimum, and 2/ make it easier to police

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

[Billy]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

Nope wrong,

Just converted a CR 500 in exactly the same way described,Measured as follows,22 degree steering head angle and 75mm of trail and that was with the standard rear shock.

[budda]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

you obviously have NO IDEA how many buckets have passed through MY shed ........... still got one of my originals, still all homemade and Honda, no Chinese pitbike sh1te, and still competitive ( well, it is with a different rider on board ) - the whole POINT is fun !!!!!!!!

[Paul Searancke]

" Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?"

Budda that brings back memories of racing my CR125 around the Hamilton Street race in the 70's. It cost next to nothing to swap over because a real good bloke owned a bike shop and helped a real young squid to set it up with the gear.Thanks again Ginger.

[lostinflyz]

maybe no one is doing it as buckets are more fun?? and open to just making piles of shit lying around work (appealing to the kiwi in all of us)..

I don't totally agree with the standard frame concepts pointed out; no matter how much you try, the geometry is going to be an issue that only $$ will sort out.
but in saying that everyone is in the same vote I spose...
The overall concept has to be good idea in the scheme of things; there is a big gap between "production 250" and 600s (or protwins etc).

no amount of money is going to "fix" a dirt bike frame. You will need new triples and you can get a set of triples made to work for any front end design.

A dirt bike frame is actually not that bad, its the rear swingarm (and the physical connection to the frame more) where i have the most problems , at least in my experiment. The frame itself is not much of an issue to solve (geometry wise). there are very few frame/swingarm combos that are worth pursuing otherwise as any geometry issues they solve come with a rather large weight issue to solve, unless you use GP frames or customs

one thing to note, and one of the issues encountered overseas is with sportbike front ends and poorly thought through rear geometry's, they do have a tendency to highside people nastily as the rear lacks anti-squat properties, and there have been a number of incidents in the US in particular with people injuring themselves not thinking through the implications of their design decisions.

[scracha]

Suzuki's aside, the reason pro-twin entries are dire is probably due to the lack of policing in the class which causes the costs to go crazy. Regardless of the engine/cc confiuration(s), a mobile dyno (max ponies) and some scales (minimum weight) are required if a lowish cost "step-up" class between 250 twins and supersport is to even get off the ground.

If it's a cheap class to get more racers on the scene, then limit wider rims, lightweight rims, piggyback aftermarket shocks or ones with remote reservoir. Also ban tyrewarmers and non dot tyres....not for cost controls but simply because fannying about changing tyres multiple times in a day will not be in the "fun" category for most potential new racers.

We have enough "premier" classes and for once I think Budda's making a lot of sense. There's a recession on and the numbers racing out there are dire.

[budda]

" Back in the day ( and I'm talking WAAAAAY back ) we used to Road Race our 125's on saturday, change em over Sat night over a diesel or two , and get 'em dirty all day Sunday - then you had all week to change it back again, ready for Saturday action - bang for your buck, surely ?"

Budda that brings back memories of racing my CR125 around the Hamilton Street race in the 70's. It cost next to nothing to swap over because a real good bloke owned a bike shop and helped a real young squid to set it up with the gear.Thanks again Ginger.

OLD COOT - CR's sucked extensive bottom compared to my RM125S, and as for my Bro's DKW 125, now THAT was cool !!!!!!!!

Besides, Hamilton is in that Island off the Northern Coast of New Zealand - the old Fryatt St Circuit in the rain was just like MX anyway !!!!!!

[budda]

we have enough "premier" classes . There's a recession on and the numbers racing out there are dire.

amen ...........

[Billy]

if it were

- Stock motor (compression, cams, pistons, rods, crank), swingarm, radiators, subframe, rear linkage
- Open: exhaust, front forks, triples, brakes, rear sets, clip ons
- Limited mods: Wheels (alloy only) , rear shock std (but open mods), frame (must be original frame but open otherwise), mods to heads allowed (how do you control??), flywheels can be modified or removed, valves can be replaced but only for a different material, size must remain the same

make that class billy and ill build 2. anything much different will become a money pit and too much like superlite

Yip,

Thats somegood input right there,Put it in an email to mnzrrc@gmail.com and I'll keep it on file till we discuss it.