There's still some things need sorting but it's getting better

[Skunk]

Well typed! sorry guys but you are as bad as I am on here, ( Thankyou for your work though) and this is not the place for you to administer the sport remember

Anybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

[suzuki21]

Anybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

I like others am sick and tired of people getting hurt/killed in the "lower grades". I am a member of one of the teams who done something wrong. It was the riders honest mistake and he was completely bummed, he was friends with those who have died recently and is intelligent enough to know the consequences of what may have happened. I am not saying he should have been made an example off to get the message across, but sometimes things need to be black and white. Zero tolerance may be required and I back Billy 100% as one day his anal strictness may save mine and other people friends and family members lifes.

[slowpoke]

I like others am sick and tired of people getting hurt/killed in the "lower grades". I am a member of one of the teams who done something wrong. It was the riders honest mistake and he was completely bummed, he was friends with those who have died recently and is intelligent enough to know the consequences of what may have happened. I am not saying he should have been made an example off to get the message across, but sometimes things need to be black and white. Zero tolerance may be required and I back Billy 100% as one day his anal strictness may save mine and other people friends and family members lifes.

Yes and no. It's a minefield deciding what constitutes a "sending off offence", and once you start down that track it opens a whole can of whoop ass: you better be damn sure you send Robbie or Andrew home if the sit up during qualifying for the Nat's or it's gonna be on for young old.

Forget the big stick: all I'd like to see is maximum visibility. Sending one person home punishes one person, but highlighting the issue to everyone would accomplish more. So why not STOP the meeting, call another rider's briefing, explain what's happened and how/why it's unacceptable (youngsters will have little idea, and we've all seen the MotoGP boys sit up and cruise in qualifying). Get EVERYONE thinking about it at the right time and place. If the meeting runs short on time, tough, it's "that guys fault"....and nobody will want to be "that guy". Email all racers after the round (not everyone goes to every round) and highlight any safety issues. If clubs/MNZ can send out membership reminders and newsletters it's not a stretch to send out a safety alert.

[Drew]

Anybody can stir shit on here... Me included. I just wanted to point out that Billy wasn't correct in the impression he gave. No story is Black and White.

Anyway - shouldn't this thread have turned to beer by now?

Fair enough to want to set things straight, I'm all for it. But the facts are all that's needed I would have thought. The banter looks bad, and makes people question weather they can confidently bring an issue to you.

[Billy]

Fair enough to want to set things straight, I'm all for it. But the facts are all that's needed I would have thought. The banter looks bad, and makes people question weather they can confidently bring an issue to you.

Yip and the fact is,I was in the control tower during the 2 qualifying sessions I mentioned and I know what I saw and heard,Plus I have the stewards report and it backs up exactly what I stated!!!

You can candy coat it anyway you want,But the fact remains,If the rules surrounding safety aren't tightened up and some consequences enforced,Then its only a matter of time before theres another death,Stopping a meeting and having a pep talk is just typical of todays PC society,The riders are informed at riders briefing and in a written brief as well,FFS what next stop them every lap and have a wee talk too them, GET REAL.

[RobGassit]

Group hug everybody. Not feelin the love.....

[slowpoke]

You can candy coat it anyway you want,But the fact remains,If the rules surrounding safety aren't tightened up and some consequences enforced,Then its only a matter of time before theres another death,Stopping a meeting and having a pep talk is just typical of todays PC society,The riders are informed at riders briefing and in a written brief as well,FFS what next stop them every lap and have a wee talk too them, GET REAL.

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

[Shaun]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

well written dude, thanks for taking the time to realy highlight the NEED to do it the way you described to GAURANTEE the message gets through to the offending riders and teams.

I am confident Billy will see the logic in your reply, we all know he is doing his best, but even CEO's of major companies need advisers to help guide them

[slowpoke]

, we all know he is doing his best,

No argument here mate, there's been a step change since he took up the position and it's good to see.

Sorry if I'm getting on your nerves Billy, believe it or not I'm just tryin' to make your job easier: best result for the least effort. Get the riders checking/helping each other out to lift their game and the battle is half way won.

[suzuki21]

Why are extra rules and enforcement etc needed? Why dont people just use their brains (Craig Shirrifs excluded as he hasnt got one).

[MSTRS:Me]

Why are extra rules and enforcement etc needed? Why dont people just use their brains (Craig Shirrifs excluded as he hasnt got one).

Refer Choppa...

I don't know about extra rules, but certainly stricter enforcement of all rules is needed. And needed precisely because people DON'T use their brains. Of course, that applies to EVERYONE as well...not just riders.

[Biggles08]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

I get your point Slowpoke and the intent has merit but the way you have suggested to enforce the 'share the knowledge' idea I disagree with.

We are all at the riders briefing (well should be), we all hear Skunk warn us about not being lite on safety issues (especially going slow on track), we all should know what those are (or we shouldn't be on the track) and if we have a brain fade putting ourselves or others at risk we all know the potential consequences. that's it...simple.

When it comes down to uniformity with enforcement of any safety rules between clubs... who cares???? If VMCC run their events with a more strict outlook/consequence on safety than AMCC for eg, we all need to adjust our behavior according to each club we are riding with...much like 'playing to the ref' I suppose. I can tell you that if this were the case ALL other clubs would eventually lift their game (as would racers/teams) as it would highlight any unsafe practices they were ignoring if another club was enforcing them (BTW I don't believe any club takes safety lightly and this was merely a hypothetical example).

My main point is...when it comes down to it, in hindsight we all know what is safe and unsafe and by stopping a meeting to highlight these points to teams/racers we will essentially be achieving nothing apart from making a good day run like arse. The main problem I see is training a racer to not make dumb decisions whilst on track while NOT under duress. We can all make wrong decisions whilst on the track in the moment and the only thing that will stop this happening is experience, and learning from these. If on the other hand you make dumb decisions with no apparent reason for it, these need to be swiftly dealt to by the authority's in order to protect that rider and those who are racing with him/her. This will soon train that racer into good practices whilst on the track or eventually remove them from participating in racing. There is no point making an example of them on the day because 99% of the people racing that day already know whatever it is they did is not the smart thing to do.

I have had a couple of cases where other racers have just about killed me on track, one being at manfield a couple of seasons ago...this rider was going slow (out of gas) exiting dunlop and turned his head the wrong way back to see behind him, swerved away (from outside of track to inside) to avoid x2 bikes behind me on the outside and missed me by mm's at about 150kph! Dumb...yes...in the moment panicking about getting out of the way...sure thing! I can tell you he will NEVER do that again with the abuse he got not only from me but others who saw the near accident. This was a dumb, in the moment mistake that he will learn from...regardless of any penalty imposed on him.

Another example was at Pukekohe racing...I was about to pass another racer on the inside at the kink at the back straight fully pinned out and this guy looked back at me and saw me coming fast, so decided to swerve into my line giving me no exit.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

The clear difference in these two cases I believe is that the first one was done in panic and was the wrong decision, the second was done in malice and was a calculated move which also was the wrong decision. One guy would learn from being penalized whilst the other guy had already learned from the experience.

I think maybe a email to the riders in between meetings explaining any issues that happened on the day that needed addressing might have merit but this involves more work for the club and essentially will be covered off in the next meetings riders briefing anyway so may not be required.

[Billy]

I AM getting real ya angry lil' bugger.

OK, for arguments sake, lets do it your way in the real world: Rider X has a problem on track, cruises around most of lap, no arm up and no indication. You send him home. Who else knows about that? What's to stop another rider doing exactly the same thing the next race?

Or exactly how long is an acceptable time to put your hand up? Immediately? He has a quick look down and loses 5 sec's before putting his arm up? Still send him home? How about if he vaguely dangles a foot off the peg and doesn't really stick it out? Good enough? What if it's Choppa, and his idea of cruising is faster than some of the guys still racing, still send him home? Exactly how slow is slow enough to be a hazard?

No fire extinguisher in the pits. Send him home? What if he/she has one but hasn't unpacked it? Send him home? It's useless buried in the trailer 30m away. What if it's young 15year old Johnny/Jackie and dad is looking after setting up, you gonna send Johnny/Jackie home? What if they have an extinguisher but it's the wrong size/type/out of date? Send him home?

Your monetary fines? Same for juniors and seniors? The consequences could be the same, and it's not like 15year old drivers get cheaper speeding fines than adults.

You'll have to come up with a specific list of safety offences and the stipulated punishment or it's just gonna be an absolute dog's breakfast. It'll be pretty fucked up if AMCC enforce something and MCI don't or apply different punishments.

It's just unworkable, and you put the officials in an impossible situation making judgement calls. Yep, some situations are cut and dried but many won't be. And you'll still only be punishing one person while the rest of the riders and crew carry on blissfully unaware of what has happened, and what they could be about to repeat themselves.

It's got abso-fukn-lutely nothing to do with "candy coating", "PC bullshit" or "pep talks" but it's got everything to do with getting the message OUT THERE. One person skulking off with everyone else unaware of what/why/where is NOT an effective message. Wouldn't a better result be to have everyone learning from the mistake and adjusting their own behaviour right then and there?

Alternative: one or two people are missing a fire extinguisher. Stop the meeting, point it out to everyone, even if you have to shorten races. Next thing every single person is checking their extinguisher. Next meeting it'll be the first thing everyone does, and not just for themselves but the racers around them 'cos nobody wants their races shortened.

I'm not being argumentative here Billy, I'm just offering ways to improve the safety culture the same as you are.

Yip,

I see your point but as Suzuki 21 has pointed out,Why would we bother introducing new rules and regs when the competitors are not following the ones we have now???The rulebook clearly states if you have an issue remove your machine from the track as soon as it is safe to do so,NOT continue on to the pits,I agree commonsense must be used,But when the riders are consistently told over and over again the same message and yet they continue to ignore it,Something has to be done,Also when your in charge of running the sport and youve issued a directive to tighten up on the safety rules,Following yet another needless death and your in the control tower and watch an incident unfold,To which the officials reaction is "Thats it we're sending him home",Only to see the same competitor being brought back in on the recovery vehicle after the next race,Is a little disressing,

As pointed out earlier,MCI and AMCC dont have these issues as they both do entry level training and the riders are taught about safety at the beginning,Not after a death.If you continue to do what you do,You'll always have what youve got,Sound familiar???Put simply,Since Manfeild opened in 1973,4 solo motorcyclists have been killed there while competing,3 were at Vic club meetings and all on the front straight,Only one of those was due to the rider losing control(Chris Dawes 1995) and do we need to count up the other incidents where riders have tailended other riders when theyve slowed in the middle of a straight???See my point yet???

[Drew]

Jeeze you're a cunt Billy.

I'd like to see some entry numbers for when those other clubs have run events AT MANFIELD before I start pointing fingers at clubs/death figures. You are making very fuckin stupid statements by comparing apples and oranges.

[jellywrestler]

Another example was at Pukekohe racing.. I missed the inside grass edge at $250kph'sh by mm's! He wasn't done though, he then swerved back the other way to cover the other side of the track after again looking behind to see me coming that side (although fairly far back as I was still shitting myself)...dumb...you bet...sent home for the day with a fine for doing dumb unsafe maneuvers...nope... but he should have been to think about why, and to train his brain out of this bad racing practice.

From memory Stu Avant caught a gust of wind and was blown off the back straight and clipped a marker post, hurt his arm a fair bit too.
With the Maoris this week now putting a claim in for the wind, would MNZ fine the tribe who owns the wind in that part of the country?