For the new riders and learners - A twist of the wrist 2

[Katman]

Reading a book about advanced paino playing doesent make me a concert painist.

Is that some sort of S & M fetish?

[ducatilover]

The problem being that far too many motorcyclists equate 'faster' with 'better' and 'better' with 'safer'.

Sure, you might be able to go around a corner faster after reading Twist of the Wrist.

Does it make you safer?

Not necessarily.

Can't disagree with you.
So, we agree training is best and these books are excellent, attitude is the killer then? In my eyes it is, only times I've come off have been because of dickheadedness.

I'm going to find a copy of the Police Road Craft book.

Fun fact for today:
GN250s are not the greatest bikes to practice TOTW skills on.

[darkwolf]

Can't disagree with you.
So, we agree training is best and these books are excellent, attitude is the killer then? In my eyes it is, only times I've come off have been because of dickheadedness.

I'm going to find a copy of the Police Road Craft book.

Fun fact for today:
GN250s are not the greatest bikes to practice TOTW skills on.

Sure they are - did you read the part about the "lean angle credit card"? It's not the lean you have but how quickly you make the turn... You may not have the ground clearance of the sports bike but doesn't mean you can't use the information in the same way...

You have two ways of applying any book about riding, read it and think this will make me faster than Rossi or read it and realise you are a useless bum on a bike and you are the reason that a bike crashes but with a bit of practice you can limit the crashiness your influence on a naturally stable machine. One is way wrong; the other is more correct.

[Akzle]

yadayadayada.


hey does everyone know about keepvid.com?

it allows you to download from youtube etc, save the movies to your computer, rather than having to download them from youtube every time if you want to watch em again. which saves on bandwidth and time...
(this may be considered piracy and may be illegal if you're in someone's jurisdiction, but so's YT)

some good points raised in the vid. i think a learner with their mind open would do well to watch it.

[darkwolf]

yadayadayada.


hey does everyone know about keepvid.com?

it allows you to download from youtube etc, save the movies to your computer, rather than having to download them from youtube every time if you want to watch em again. which saves on bandwidth and time...
(this may be considered piracy and may be illegal if you're in someone's jurisdiction, but so's YT)

some good points raised in the vid. i think a learner with their mind open would do well to watch it.

You would be better served to view the video through Google Chrome and download a YouTube video through YouTube's own downloader extension I would think...

[Akzle]

You would be better served to view the video through Google Chrome and download a YouTube video through YouTube's own downloader extension I would think...

if you use chrome anyway (which i don't, because i think it's shit (opera FTW)) meybe.
keepvid also allows you to dl from google vid, vimeo, tube8 etc etc.

[ducatilover]

Sure they are - did you read the part about the "lean angle credit card"? It's not the lean you have but how quickly you make the turn... You may not have the ground clearance of the sports bike but doesn't mean you can't use the information in the same way...

You have two ways of applying any book about riding, read it and think this will make me faster than Rossi or read it and realise you are a useless bum on a bike and you are the reason that a bike crashes but with a bit of practice you can limit the crashiness your influence on a naturally stable machine. One is way wrong; the other is more correct.

Would help me if my GN would build up enough speed to get to the first corner... In saying that, it's the most amusing heap of shit I've ridden. I leave the practice of TOTW to my time on the 600, there aren't many corners around here that are GN friendly

[nzspokes]

Would help me if my GN would build up enough speed to get to the first corner... In saying that, it's the most amusing heap of shit I've ridden. I leave the practice of TOTW to my time on the 600, there aren't many corners around here that are GN friendly

GN friendly? You should be able to get your knee down in the driveway.

[ducatilover]

GN friendly? You should be able to get your knee down in the driveway.

I can, have you seen my post count?

[R-Soul]

And therein lies the difference between Twist of the Wrist and The Police Rider's Handbook to Better Motorcycling and why the latter is a far more suitable manual for learner riders.

You could feasibly take and apply 10% from TOTW and actually become a more dangerous rider while on the other hand, taking any 10% from the Police Handbook will make you safer.

Sure road craft skills are good - very important - but the fact is that half of all bike accidents are bikes going off corners all by their ownsome.

And its not because they did not use their roadcraft skills to not spot a cow pat. Its because they froze up and were not able to control their machine, with bad pody positioning, and had their survival reactions (SR's) kick in, which are counter intuitive for all of us (not just newbies). They did not recognise their reactions as SR's and did not know what to do to overcome them as they were going off the corner. They did not not know their own and their bikes capabilities, which led them to beloeve that they could not trun the bike in more witout losing traction. So an accident that could be avoided by merely turning harder, happened. Not because of poor roadcraft, but because they just did not know how to control their bike.

OK arguably good roadcraft would have helped them spot a tightening corner earlier....

To my mind, roadcraft lets you spot hazards as soon as possible, while "machine craft" gives you better ability to get through the hazard unscathed, and in control.

[SuperMac]

Sure road craft skills are good - very important - but the fact is that half of all bike accidents are bikes going off corners all by their ownsome.

And its not because they did not use their roadcraft skills to not spot a cow pat. Its because they froze up and were not able to control their machine, with bad pody positioning, and had their survival reactions (SR's) kick in, which are counter intuitive for all of us (not just newbies). . . . They did not not know their own and their bikes capabilities, which led them to beloeve that they could not trun the bike in more witout losing traction. So an accident that could be avoided by merely turning harder, happened. Not because of poor roadcraft, but because they just did not know how to control their bike.

OK arguably good roadcraft would have helped them spot a tightening corner earlier....

To my mind, roadcraft lets you spot hazards as soon as possible, while "machine craft" gives you better ability to get through the hazard unscathed, and in control.

Unfortunately, in the UK 'Roadcraft'-style training has traditionally excluded (or 'not included', depending on whether you view it as deliberate ) any 'machine control' aspects (such as use of counter-steering, and body positioning) have been sadly absent.

Which meant that if the UK-trained rider miss-read a corner and went in too fast, then he might well (if he lived to discuss it) be able to tell you what he got wrong, he might even be able to identify how he 'froze' and looked out of the corner at the wall or tree.

But he wouldn't know about counter-steering so won't have been able to do anything useful to get out of the hole he was rapidly digging.

If you get to read either Motorcycle Roadcraft or the UK Driving Standards Agency (who control all 'licence' training and testing) Motorcycling Manual, you may be shocked to find that neither will explain how to counter-steer.

That said, 'attitude' was mentioned earlier in the thread, and if linked with good hazard perception that may well keep you out of trouble far better than improved machine control.

As a flip around of something else said, a 'poor' rider isn't necessarily 'dangerous' as long as they stay within their limits.

[p.dath]

Unfortunately, in the UK 'Roadcraft'-style training has traditionally excluded (or 'not included', depending on whether you view it as deliberate ) any 'machine control' aspects (such as use of counter-steering, and body positioning) have been sadly absent
....
If you get to read either Motorcycle Roadcraft or the UK Driving Standards Agency (who control all 'licence' training and testing) Motorcycling Manual, you may be shocked to find that neither will explain how to counter-steer.
...

Perhaps my recollection of the book is wrong, but I'm pretty sure it talks about the IPSGA methodology, and does discuss counter-steering and has a little bit about machine machine control (in the methodology S=speed, G=gear and A=acceleration).


If you missed the IPSGA methodology from the book then you missed the half the point of the book.

[SuperMac]

Perhaps my recollection of the book is wrong, but I'm pretty sure it talks about the IPSGA methodology, and does discuss counter-steering and has a little bit about machine machine control (in the methodology S=speed, G=gear and A=acceleration).

If you missed the IPSGA methodology from the book then you missed the half the point of the book.

No idea what that smiley is supposed to mean, but it seems somehow appropriate

Anyway . . . trust me, there's nothing in the most recent version about counter-steering, and there hasn't been in any previous version (the old 'blue book' suggested that the front wheel didn't need to be turned, one simply leaned to get around corners).

When I say 'machine control', I'm contrasting it with US training such as that provided by the MSF, which when I did their courses covered counter-steering, counter-leaning, braking techniques, rear wheel lock-ups, etc. In fact, they've moved on and introduced a specific sports bike course, possibly as a tie in with CSS.

I don't think I missed the IPSGA methodology, which has been developed from the earlier 7-point system throughout which information gathering was use to determine which of the points were used or whether the system should be 'restarted'.

The original 'blue book' style was far more prescriptive. If you want and idea of that, check Youtube for the set of Kent police 'Riding Plans' videos (try to watch them in order).

Also in the most recent (post '96) versions of Roadcraft is the Observe Plan Act mental system. This is very similar to the Search Predict Act system which the MSF introduced in the late 1980s, but during a visit to the London's Metropolitan police driving school, Chris Gilbert ( http://www.driving4tomorrow.com/about.htm ) told me that they came up with the OPA version without contact with the MSF. That said, much of the 'new' Roadcraft's style of content and presentation came from Gordon Sharp ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/Human-Aspect.../dp/1901568008 ) so he may well have been aware of the MSF's work.

Search Predict Act is a 'compact' version of Scan Identify Plan Decide Execute, but the MSF, however, have now moved on from SPA to 'SEE', Search Evaluate Execute.

[SuperMac]

Accidents: The result of a failure to plan

A friend of mine says a 'near miss' is an 'accident suffering from lack of ambition'

[R-Soul]

I am not slagging off either -both are very important to riding safety. On one aspect, there is the cerebral side of it - the awareness of your surroundings and prediction of events - all those TLA's (three letter acronyms) you mentioned, that allow you to stay clear of trouble in the first place.

And then there is the practical set of riding techniques and theory - the "what to do when you are in the hole already" - that is also critical.

eg
- what to do when the head starts shaking because you accelerated too rapidly and the front wheel lifted and came down skew, or when you hit a block of wood in the road that came out form under the car in front of you
- what to do and what position your body should be in in corners, to be able to react when the corner tightens up unexpectedly
- why and when you lean, and what way to lean at diffrent speeds for different effects


The theory behind this, a well as getting practical experience in it, especially in a safe setting, is important as part of a riders education.