Teachers and the MinEd

**joan of arc** · 17th October 2012, 19:14

While the MinEd need to get their act together regarding getting teacher pay sorted, the bleating of teachers that they are so hard done by doesn't always ring true.

And when we (the tax payers) consider how much money education costs us, it stuns me that there is not a whole load more accountability asked of the teaching profession

From the Min of Ed website

Between March 2000 and 2012, overall average teacher pay (salary plus allowances) in state and state integrated schools increased as follows.
•Secondary teachers’ average pay increased 54.8%, from $47,764 to $73,955.
•Primary teachers’ average pay increased 64.5% from $42,358 to $69,660.
•Area school teachers’ average pay increased 57.8% from $45,936 to $72,470.
•Overall, teachers’ average pay increased 60.6% from $44,542 to $71,526.

Far as I can tell there are a little under 50,000 teachers in NZ which means that it cost us about $3,500,000,000 ($3.5 billion for those that don't like to count zeros) a year in pay.

Add to that maintenance of building and a whole heap of teaching resources, I can see why school closures and amalgamations would be on the agenda for saving some cash in these hard times

**PrincessBandit** · 17th October 2012, 19:30

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work. Despite the pay figures teachers leave the profession in droves, often through burn out within the first 5 years.

**Katman** · 17th October 2012, 19:33

Originally Posted by PrincessBandit

Have you been a teacher? It's bloody hard work.

So is being a mechanic.

Just saying like.

**nonie** · 17th October 2012, 19:34

What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.The teachers that remained took up to 8 years to work their way to the top of the pay scale . Obviously, then, with the large number of experienced teachers in front of classes, who take on extra responsibilities to gain meagre management allowances, the average pay has increased.

i don't know what your problem is. Perhaps you forget that teachers pay taxes and pay for their kids to be educated just like everyone else!

Your post lacks any context.

**Akzle** · 17th October 2012, 19:35

you seems to be looking at the symptom, nae the problaem. state-funded teachers exist only to perpetuate the doctrine of the state.

don't whinge to KB.
DO some shit about it (yeah right)

**Akzle** · 17th October 2012, 19:37

Originally Posted by Katman

So is being a mechanic.

grease-monkeys get no sympathy.
add "engineer" or "technician" to your job description. then we'll care slightly more (but still fuckall. plebian)

**Katman** · 17th October 2012, 19:38

Originally Posted by Akzle

grease-monkeys get no sympathy.

Thanks for proving my point.

**Jantar** · 17th October 2012, 19:41

That data shows that teachers' pay has kept up with inflation, but generally the top teachers are still underpaid. Someone with a degree at the top of the secondary teachers' scale is below what I would pay someone in my job as a starting salary without a degree.

There are just over 760,000 pupils in New Zealand which gives a pupil:teacher ratio of 15:1, and this is where the big issue is. Reduce the number of teachers and pay them better for achieving good results.

Back in the day when I attended school (yes I had to walk as there were no busses, we had bare feet, and it was uphill both ways) the average class size was 40:1 at primary school and 30:1 at secondary school. I would also claim that we received a better education to higher standards than many of today's pupils. The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed so that all the pupils in a class were learning at around the same rate. there were no slower pupils holding back the brighter ones as all the below average students were in the same stream as were all the brighter students in the same stream.

This even happened at primary school eg. The brighter std 3 pupils were in the same class room as the main std 4 pupils and the slower std 4 pupils were in the same room as the main group of std 3 pupils.

Perhaps we need to go back to streaming and to external exams to check that standards are being maintained. Then we can have fewer teachers of higher quality being paid more and achieving better results.

**Oakie** · 17th October 2012, 19:47

Originally Posted by nonie

What this post fails to take into account is that during the twelve years referred to a huge number of younger teachers on the lower pay scale left the profession.

To be replaced by more young teachers on that lower pay scale surely ... thus maintaining the status quo.

**Akzle** · 17th October 2012, 19:49

Originally Posted by Jantar

...Reduce the number of teachers and pay them better for achieving good results.

The secret to managing large class sizes was that pupils were streamed

"for achieving good results" - this is the thing i find hard to qualify.
if a teacher in south acuakland has a pass rate of 54%, tey could have done really well, since half the kids are hungry, the other half are dropkicks, and 80% of the total had a doobie before class...
if, say, some private school had a pass rate of 54%, you can bet the parents would piss and moan about it.... (even if 80% of the kids had a doobie before class, but it's not the kids fault, because the parents are rich, see...)

the secret to managing large class sizes is give the teachers a meter rule and let the kids know they're not above being hit with it...

**SMOKEU** · 17th October 2012, 19:52

With the way kids/teens behave these days I don't blame teachers for wanting more money. They suffer almost endless abuse from unruly students and there is very little, if anything, that they can do about it. The government is so fucking PC that they allow these hooligans to run rampant and spoil the right for every other student to get a good education.

**nonie** · 17th October 2012, 19:52

well actually I believe that there are fewer young people taking up teaching. Many of the 'new" teachers coming in bring teaching equivalent experience and so are promoted up the pay scale from the start.
regardless.. go the PPTA and the collective that fight hard for the teachers and their conditions..the power of the union.

**Jantar** · 17th October 2012, 20:13

Originally Posted by Akzle

"for achieving good results" - this is the thing i find hard to qualify.
if a teacher in south acuakland has a pass rate of 54%, tey could have done really well, since half the kids are hungry, the other half are dropkicks, and 80% of the total had a doobie before class...
if, say, some private school had a pass rate of 54%, you can bet the parents would piss and moan about it.... (even if 80% of the kids had a doobie before class, but it's not the kids fault, because the parents are rich, see...)....

Pass rates are not the only way to achieve good results. One measure of success would be to assess the pupils at the end of each year against the national standards. If only 54% of the pupils met the standards at the end of a particular year and 58% achieve at the end of the next year then the teacher who brought them up from 54% to 58% has performed better than average and deserves a pay rise in addition to any negotiated by his/her union.

If instead of increasing from 54% the average drops to 50% then that teacher hasn't achieved so well and could possibly experience less of a pay rise, or even a cut. By measuring success in this way there is more opportunity for those teachers in South Auckland to achieve better outcomes than teachers at private schools.