Part of Society? - For Akzle

[scissorhands]

Your rights aren't curb, you have just as few as the rest of us, might be that you can't make full use of all of them because you fail to emphasize with those around you but you still have those rights and therefore the attendant responsibilities. When you can attend to your responsibilities you can exercise your rights.

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

[oneofsix]

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

empathy or sympathy? Whatever doesn't matter about the words it is the relating to "normals" that matters. When I don't relate well I too can't then exercise my "rights" but I would be what you term a "normal". The rights still exist, just can't use them.

[BoristheBiter]

i am not trying to live like a parasite, quite the opposite. i'm trying to go completely off grid.

- i do quite a bit. beyond the scope of this thread, though. goes with that "trying to live off grid" above.

bahahahha. who needs consistency when you have beer?!

If you want to live off the grid why are you on the internet?
you say you are happy to do this yet you seem the need to explain yourself to great detail, somewhat saying you need some sort of approval.
Did you not get cuddles from mummy and daddy was never there even if you knew which one of your uncles he was?

Did you make that beer yourself or are you buying into society's consumerism?

And we are taking about star trek not star wars.

[Genestho]

Crikey!!

What an excruciating read.... If the 'man of green font' was off the grid, or trying - we on teh interwebs certainly wouldn't be hearing about it! Not even after Beer!!

Pretty sure friends in Byron Bay/Nimbin, nor the Coromandel who live their own ways, non confrontationally and self sufficiently providing for themselves, wouldn't be bothered telling anyone who'd listen how they "live on the edge of society, man"!

Anyway, good luck to ya!

[Akzle]

Hmmmm... Sorry, don't do beer. And in all fairness, I am only following this thread because you intrigue me.

Inconsistencies?
1-having an issue with foreigners in this country, while claiming yourself a "Citizen of Earth with a claim to 1/6 billionth of this planet.

2-Should be interesting if/when you get caught and trialled for your dealing in marijuanna. We'll see how well your "I'm outside your laws" thinking is going to do then in a court of law.

3- ...Could it be because you actually have the freedom to be your pseudo outlaw self, what with this flailing democracy system giving some leeway towards achieving this goal?

hey, i'm in town. i can "intrigue" you all night long if ya want...
(but i'm intimidated by your bike, so be gentle with me)

1- mocking the mockers. there's no such thing as foreigners. that's a fiction.

2- i interact with police on a semi-regular basis, and always rock my plenipotentiary adjudicunt shit. works outright about 50% of the time.
and if you hit up some youtube videos you'll see that "sovereign men" do fairly well in open court. we don't play in the crown courts, because they're fucked up. (conflict of interest, unlawful, i'm not part of the "law society" either, etc)
we convene courts de jure, generally under common law rights. very few judges want to go on record saying they deny you your common law rights.

(ps, i don't actually "deal" marajuana. just grow, smoke and share it, there's not often money involved)

3- you're right. ish. but again, if i were elsewhere, the middle east say, i'd be packing an AK47 and voicing my opinion in some kind of street rioting type behaviour, executing politicians. asides from "i aint got enough money or a big enough boat to go anywhere else",
i do enjoy the relative freedom of these islands. the means to argue by my mind rather than my gun cabinet.

But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

well, you'll get along swimmingly 'round here...

If you want to live off the grid why are you on the internet?
you say you are happy to do this yet you seem the need to explain yourself to great detail, somewhat saying you need some sort of approval.

Did you make that beer yourself or are you buying into society's consumerism?

i'm explaining myself for the benefit of the daft. i'm not seeking approval, (fuck knows i don't get much 'round here) i may inspire or intrigue someone, to think about some shit, and reconsider their previously sheepily fixed views of the system that's going to rob them of the best years of their lives then pay them a pittance to die. (if you're lucky)

people also tend to rebutt short statements, so i explain the whyfore, ahead of the why.

why am i on the internets? how else would i meet such lovely people as you all?

my five gallon bucket says i make beer myself.


// the reason you have 12000 posts, scum puppy, is that you can't seem to fucken multiquote. you take 4 posts to say what most people would in one, and all of it is shit.

gtfo my thread.

[oneofsix]

Akzle, you disappoint me with your explanation as to how come you feel not part of society and yet entitled to use the interwebs. I was expecting something more along the lines of the interwebs being available to all societies or none but not part of or belonging to any society.

[Banditbandit]

jeeeeeeeebus. well. guess it'd be rude not to show up. not like i feel i owe you anything. and you did a much better impression of spelling engrish this round.

Thanks for the response.

I don't give a fuck about spelling .. when I can be bothered I edit and correct - but spelling is just one of those rule things y'know ...

bullet points!:
- we are arguing from two different platforms. law, legal, legislation, boundaries, words, claims etc ARE ALL FICTION.

-a "society" is legally defined as: "A group of people joined by mutual consent to deliberate, determine and act toward a common goal"

Yeah - I get all that ... legal fictions ... I'm not arguing legal fictions, which is an analytically correct position, but hardly a practical useful one ... I'm arguing from functional occurence with practical references points. Whe we say "our gold medalists" or "New ZEaland gold medalist" we are not talking about the legal fictionof a country - but the practical occurences of our actual lives. When New ZEaland beats Australia at Netball it is not the legal fiction that has played and won ..

i do not mutually consent, i do not believe in the goals of the NZ govt/society and if you can point to one (legally) "common" goal.. well, hats off.

Goals? I am unsure where that comes from - I never thought we had "common goals" ...

-who is defending the border? we got a stack of foreigners on this land...

Yes .. and some of us have been pissed off at that for 200 years - So - are you one of the immigrants? Ngā mihi ki a koe ...

-given that "New Zealand" is a fiction, (claimed) territory is a fiction, and generally everything else is a fiction, it actually has "no basis in reality"

Oh? It would seem that it is clearly defined by our coast line ... it's not as if it is some fictional line drawn on a map which apparently separates it from other countries, as occurs across Africa f'rinstance ... it's a clear defined boundary ... and it was first legally defined (Yes, I accept theat it is legally defined accurding to your rules) by us, the tangata whenua in 1835 in the Declaration of Independence, whose Māori authors called in New Zealand ... are you coming to OUR country to tel us OUR country does not exist ???

It may be a legal fiction in your western-derived worldview - and we bought into the wesdtern world's legal fiction to say "This is Ours" it is not a fiction in ours - but it is real, we stand on it, it has been handed down from mai rāno ...

this is your mao quote - the only people with "authority" nowadays, have to have the guns to enforce it. the current crowd claiming NZ have a gang in blue vests and holdens, enforcing their claim.

"natural authority" relies on the assent of the people/individual being "governed", there is no subjugation, no force required.

Yes - I agree. I have not consented, but neither have I rejected our "Government". I'm neutral on that one ...

everyone comes under one (much) higher authority than the small men in parliament, that'd be the creator, whatever you believe, you were created. (were you the proponent of evolution from pond scum?) personally, i'm with some kind of intelligent design/higher consciousness. everything stems from consciousness, as a human you cannot create consciousness, so there is a force higher than human.

There is not higher power or creator in my worldview - I am not subject to any authority- not even that fictional one ... but I would not say there is no force higher than human ... what privileges human beings over other life forms in the natural world?

-righto. i haven't quite got it down to not buying anything, i like stuff, modern commerce requires the "money"/debt to do so, so i do contribute GST.
you're welcome.
i do not pay rego, road user etc etc etc.

Good luck on the Gixxer with no rego ... you will eventually run into the enforcement agencies .. (unless you have it on display in the stting room) ... then you will see just how much you are not part of the system ...

i am not trying to live like a parasite, quite the opposite. i'm trying to go completely off grid.

Good luck with that ... I've come pretty close in the past ... still got stuck with paying rates - but I could have lived off my land .. food, water and energy were all avaliable ...

-if you were free, you wouldn't have to "fly under the radar" if you are doing no harm to anyone else, noone else should feel a social obligation to stop you from doing anything.

See we do agree on many things .. I do not harm others, I don't expect to stop other peopel doing what they want - and I expect other peopel to leave me anlone to do what I want as long as I don't harm others ... but the reality is that we are surrounded by law makers and law enforces .. so to avoid the unwanted consequences of my actions I fly under the radar ... it is more freeing to avoid being involved in the court processes than to take them on head on ... it's avoidance rather than acquiescence.

you rebel you, you choose not to follow laws. (me too)
you take responsibility for what you do (me too)

- i do quite a bit. beyond the scope of this thread, though. goes with that "trying to live off grid" above.

- i am solar powered. so no, i'm not "using the electricity of your society"
i'm using the energy of the cosmos, man!

- if you mean i live "economically" in monetary terms, yes, i generally live on the cheap.

Good luck - I have come close to that ideal ...

- prior right of occupation? dunno about you, i'm human. we've been on the planet for 10, 000 years or more. i have a lawful claim to 1/6 billionth of the planet.

See - that's where our worldviews separate. I am a part of this whenua ... this whenua feeds me, clothes me, provides me with shelter and water. Papatuanuku is here, in this motu. This is my link to here - the whenua - the placenta which is life ... the whenua - the land of which we are a part ... when I was born the whenua/placenta which linked me to my mother went back to the whenua - the land. WHen I die my tinana/body returns to Papatuanuku. My tinana, which was created from Papatuanku, returns to her ... my wairua and hinengakau move on ...

you're thinking small man. way too small. i am citizen earth.

You may be a citizen of the earth - I am a descendent of Rangi and Papa, of Tane, of Hine Titama, who became Hinenui Te Po ... I am a descendent of this whenua ...

- "the agreement of our elected representatives" - i did not agree to anyone to represent me, i'm capable of representing myself. i also never voted for anyone to make decisions/"represent" for me. thus i retain the right to do so myself.

By not voting you are giving up any power you have to influence decisions that affect you directly .. is this a good thing?

- again, would you prefer i drive a tank accross private land everywhere, or use a light vehicle on the roads?

if the roads are "public" ie, for EVERYONE, why should i not use them?

you could try driving across "private land" (as an anarchist I abhor the concept of "private land" ) but see how the land owners react ...

But mainly you should not use public roads which are for "everyone" because you claim you are not part of "everyone" ..

does that mean that people on holiday in the country can't use the roads, not being NZ citizens and thus contributing a lifetime of tax for them?

Yeah .. Naaa bro .. they are visitors - we treat manuhiri well in this country - and they bring money into our economy - we've been grabbing tourist dollars since Capt Cook came back and we sold him food ...

- again with the delusion/fictions. you're propping up more of them than me, and thus, from where i'm wanking, err... sitting, it's you that's deluded.

I agree that we disagree - I'm not deluded - I understand everything you say - I once thought very close to you - it was a long time ago .. then I changed - not because I accepted the hegemonic bullshit of a corrupt system - I accepted the practical realities of my life ..

And I also accepted that while it is satisfiying to be apart from a society which I thought at the tiem was a crock of shit - that pathway does not lead to change and improvement. My goal is to improvfe life for all human beings - and that is not possible from outside the system, where I was only throwing stones at glass houses, as it where. Now I am inside the house I can act more effectively for social change - we need the radicals outside, but we also need the agents inside ... (see below - your further comments and mine)


Too long a post - split in half ..

[Banditbandit]

- "go somewhere else" i love this one.

I don't seriously expect you to go somewhere else - I was attempting, in a somewhat subtle and experiential learning way, to suggest that it does not matter where you go in the world today, there is always some system, souime country, some lasws, which will be applied to you ...

unfortunately you bite your own ass. you accept that NZ is a rightful distinction, you accept that the government has authority to make decisions for the "represented", you accept that you are part of the society, but you break the rules (but "keep your head down") - if you don't like the rules, why don't you go somewhere else?

The Government has authority becase the citizens of New Zealand choose to grant them that autrhority ... I don';t necessarily accept that as a philosophical or political position - I only accept the practicalities of it .. adn I count deviants as part of society - nto as a separate part .. they are deviants not exiles ...

- rights are a legal fiction.
really? you want to revise that at all before i get into it??

Go ahead bro ... "rights" are a fiction .. as Scumdog says .. ask a starving African child just how his rights are today .. the whole of human history shows that people only have what they are prepared to fight and die for ... even the authors and supporters of the US Declaration of Independence had to fight and die for the "rights" they declared ... and the autrhors did nopt consider black people had rights ... or women for that matter ..

so as a man who is born, (assuming you had your ideal society with no governance (that's anarchy, eh?)) you mean to tell me you have no rights? that i can do whatever i want to you?

Yes - you can try - I can defend myself ... don't go bleating to the system ... it's either/or ... And I am not talking "right to defend myself" I am talking armed and capable .. (And no, anarchy is not "no governance ...")

a "person" is a legal fiction, and, legally, has the capacity for "rights and duties"

See - a person is a legal fiction - agreed .. therefore you have to agree any rights and duties are also legal fictions ..

a man, born under the creator, i would argue, has full rights, second only to the creator. noone can infringe against those rights except by force.

Naaa bro .. No creator ...

- "democracy is the best system" democracy is organised mob rule. technically 51% of the population can beat down 49%.
unfortunately we do not even have the blessing of true democracy, (nor anywhere in the world.)

Only an authoritarian democracy (elected dictatorship) takes that form. A deliberative democracy can take that form, but a radical plural democracy would never take that form ..

your argument falls short for lack of anything to base it on.

Huh ???

- you work towards a greater personal freedom (me too)

But it appears you see that as an individual thing .. whuile I work for the greater freedom of all ...

- "there wil always be that work as total personal freedom, with the current political, social and psychological state of human beings."

yes, but why should the way it is affect the way it should be? i would submit that you're not free at all.

To a certain extent you are right ... I could throw the old hippie line at you "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose" .. but that's not a total answer ... I have accepted the loss of some freedom to be involved in changing the system - and I have accepted the loss of some small freedom as a requirermwent of avoiding the consequences of my rebel and deviant actions ..

i've seen the argument "you have to be involved in the system to change it" i don't buy it. on account of it hasn't fucken changed.

Mate - it has changed heaps ... I grew up in the 50s and 60s .. and the changes are radical - too long to list ... There used to be separate pay trates in national awards for Māori workers - that has gone. Our reo is now an acknowledged language of our whenua ... women have gained many advances ... We no longer have a Prime Minsiter controlling the contry by regulation without even consulting cabinet ...

I agree that change friom within is a slower process than armed revolution - but it does happen - and it does not require the violence of armed revolution (which I support in the right piolitcial and historic circumstances.)

- you have a vote? whoop dee fuck, how well has that worked out for your personal freedom?

BNo impact really - the only thing is that each election year I first decide whether I'm goign to vote or not, and then I rmemebr how many opeopel died to give peopel thje vote .. so I do .. but then I have to decide which of the corrupt bunch I'm goigj to vote for ...

- - you think i am wrong, i think you are wrong. maybe if you read what i've read you'd change your mind, maybe vicey versey. we are both working toward similar goals, but i think you're being held back by the fictions you've created around yourself, (for whatever reason).

you're held down by the small thinking of "i am NZ" "i am anarchist" boundaries and borders and definitions - ALL FICTIONS.

Whatever ... I used to think like you do ... maybe one day you will think like I do now ...

And read the tag line - I'm not only an anarchist - I'm anarchic with it ...

you're deluded if you think voting does any more than encourage the criminality at the top. you're twice deluded if you think those at the top aren't criminals.

Yeah ... we (a group of crazied anarchists) once ran an election year slogan "Don't vote - Only Politicians Win " ... it was in shakey city back in the 1970s ...

[Banditbandit]

and since i'm still awake.
being "in NZ" doesn't mean i'm NZ society. that's like saying i'm fruit because i'm in a fruit shop.
just because you are within the claimed bounds of somewhere, doesn't mean you're it.

Bwhahaha .. yes ..but if I said (hypothertically because you don't) you're fruit because you ride a Honda .. mosy people here would agree with me .. (except the Honda riders)

[Banditbandit]

I have empathy for many things, but I can never be a *normal* as your stipulated prerequisite for rights demands.
Check my human and animal rights efforts
I may have more empathy than you...
'Autistics dont have empathy' is some of the BS out there, many have too much
But no, I cant relate to normals very well at all

hat's OK .. even some of us non-neourotypicals have problems relating to your persona as well.

[Banditbandit]

(ps, i don't actually "deal" marajuana. just grow, smoke and share it, there's not often money involved)

Hmmm ... been there, done that - it does tend to diminish the credibility of your arguments.

[Genestho]

Snip

i'm explaining myself for the benefit of the daft. i'm not seeking approval, (fuck knows i don't get much 'round here) i may inspire or intrigue someone, to think about some shit, and reconsider their previously sheepily fixed views of the system that's going to rob them of the best years of their lives then pay them a pittance to die. (if you're lucky)

By that statement - you're making assumptions of strangers you don't know, furthermore a society of strangers. Fair enough - many have been there as moody teenagers, some stay there.

You have no idea how people have lived their lives nor how they got to "here" what games of chess have been played, what risks have been taken, nor what sacrifices have been made, by people that live by their own rules.
You still don't have that explanation for why you're on the interwebs but yet trying to get off the grid. I'm still laughing!

Sorry, but this is hardly "inspiring", dude.

[SMOKEU]

Admitting that you grow buds on a public forum is not a sensible idea.

[mashman]

You still don't have that explanation for why you're on the interwebs but yet trying to get off the grid. I'm still laughing!

Sorry, but this is hardly "inspiring", dude.

In this day and age I thought we'd moved past viewing being off grid as having to live like Barb and Tom. It would seem not, how 70's of you all... moreover it makes you a hypocrite. I'm laughing too, but not for the same reasons as yourself.

I dunno, I find it completely acceptable... maybe not inspiring, but definitely acceptable.

[GTRMAN]

To say "I am not part of your society, I reject your law's' is fairly easy when hidden behind the anonymity of an internet pseudonym. Akzle do you have the courage of your convictions? You openly admit to many things our, or in your opinion, MY society, deems illegal. If you truly believe what you say in your green diatribes then post your real name and see what happens.

Put up, or shut up