ESE's works engine tuner

[FastFred]

Using a GP1 engine fitted to a standard frame would seem like a good idea, but I can only see the problem of it being so damned long, it completely frigging your chain run, (critical in a conventional chassis) weight dispersal and so on

It looks like a CVT with a chain final drive fits in a conventional frame layout ok.

I have quite some experience racing in NZ and Europe, and in the last 6 years, plenty of that has been on scooters, some of which have been scootermatics,

It doesn't show in your posts, so I wouldn't make a virtue of it as people will expected some real technical insight from someone touting that sort of background.

I am of the opinion that information is best given from real world experience opposed to second hand information.

SS90 maybe if you relied less on your own and a few friends limited personal experience and did more research educating yourself, internet based and otherwise like TeeZee does you would be more successful in what you do and be able to contribute actual ideas with a more positive input, its just a thought.

[Cheesy]

Attachment 273858

Chambers made a 22rwhp GP100 but there was not much posted about it. It had a big carb and at the time it made more hp than TeeZees 125.

Attachment 273867

The whole thing was an experiment to see if a big carb 100 would be a better bet than a restricted 125.

Attachment 273868

The 100 had only one real outing, at Taupo and showed its gratatude by spitting Chambers off leaving him with a nasty bruise.

And in the next race Av rode it, and it spat her off in the same corner too, after that Team ESE made new bikes using FZR 3LN chassis with GP125 engines.

If I come across anything I will PM you.

Cool thanks for that, I bought a GP100 bucket off trademe for spare parts for a commuter but it does actually go (now) and is much faster than the road going version so it could be fun to play with. Some one has had a little go at porting it but not anything too significant other than a small auxiliary exhaust port that has been drilled in, has what I assume to be an RGV250 pipe on it and a bored out Mikuni flatslide. All I have done so far is modify what I assume to be a GP125 head with a squish band and toroidal chamber

[crazy man]

Open question to crazyman
How much to mount the MC16 frames Rob has in your frame jig and reconfigure to NX4 geometry.......




Not that i don't think the CVT could be excellent.
just wondering..........

nice to know the angle from the frame rails to the fork head ? maybe close as it stands if it had the same lenth forks as a rs in it.. so would end up most the work would be in the swing arm pivit

[TZ350]

take a look at the Derbi Variant MJR: http://www.50soffroad.net/web/foro_o....php?f=70&t=11
And just look how simple the cases are compared to those of a gearbox engine. This is something you can definitely make at home.

Thanks for the pictures.

Seems we've wetted your appetite...

Yes, to true, but things take time ....

I remember your comment about my engine placement and how it could be changed to good effect handling wise and that would improve lap times. Well we took it to heart and have been working on it. We are constructing a completely new bike, in the mean time we have been keeping the old one going so there is something to ride and use for engine testing and development.

Also your original comments about CVT's had me thinking about how they could be used to eliminate wasteful gear changing and improve drive out of the corner which is where my bike looses out to the FXR's. At Mt Wellington, its those first few bike lengths out of the corner that are so important.

The CVT's main advantage is that there are no shift-related power cuts while accelerating. And no, it's not about the tenths of seconds that the power is absent; it is all about keeping the gas dynamics in the engine on full song all the time. When you shift, power has to be interrupted for a moment (seamless shift boxes excepted) which means the exhaust pulses will stop. After a shift event the engine sound will return immediately, but engine power will not. It may take as long as a second before full power is restored. But chances are that you will have to shift again within that second. So on the track you will never have the power at your disposal that you saw on the test bench.

Thanks Frits, and that is why I am interestd in CVT.

At the last meeting at Mt Wellington I did not see any bike actually overtake the Beast down the straight but a few kept up with it by virtue of there better initial drive. Then a more skilled or experienced rider could out ride the Beast on the approach to the next corner.



I think there is plenty of room in my frame for a CVT and chain final drive and the CVT could be incorporated into the engine plates.

I only need the main components from something that can be tuned to peak at about 12-13k. It would be easy to cut the gear box of the beast and run it with a CVT transmission. Although I would probably look at making something entirly new like a H2o 100 with a rear mounted rotary valve and special pumper slide carb.

All I need to know is what to get that is legal for my class of racing, and where to go to get it. Speedpro suggests something Yamaha from Malaysia as he tells me there are plenty of tuning parts for road scooters and bikes that don't have the illegal words "Racing" or "For Competition use Only" printed on the packaging.

What I would like is the complete bottom end and transmission from a blown up wreck, four or two stroke, it doesn't matter so long as I can get several of them for development and spares.

Now does anyone have a couple of discarded CVT engine/transmissions lying around they can sell. If they are boxed and labeled I can pretty much get them picked up from anywhere in the world.

[wobbly]

I will say it AGAIN TeeZee, forget that shit.
Spend your time perfecting a 30Hp 125 Aircooled that has superb throttle response, can kick NoMates arse - who still holds the lap record at Mt Welly - and runs all day, every day.
THEN fuck with off the wall ideas, especially ones that will see the thing spinning at 13000 nearly ALL the time..

[TZ350]

I will say it AGAIN TeeZee, forget that shit.
Spend your time perfecting a 30Hp 125 Aircooled that has superb throttle response, can kick NoMates arse - who still holds the lap record at Mt Welly - and runs all day, every day.
THEN fuck with off the wall ideas, especially ones that will see the thing spinning at 13000 nearly ALL the time..

Basically that is the plan, as we are still developing the Beasts engine and the new bike is being built for improved handling. It will be able to run a conventional engine or CVT or mix and match both as it will be setup for easy engine swaps.

Anyway I only think about this stuff and future development plans when I can't get any dyno time for the Beast and have to amuse myself with something else.

[richban]

I will say it AGAIN TeeZee, forget that shit.
Spend your time perfecting a 30Hp 125 Aircooled that has superb throttle response, can kick NoMates arse - who still holds the lap record at Mt Welly - and runs all day, every day.
THEN fuck with off the wall ideas, especially ones that will see the thing spinning at 13000 nearly ALL the time..

I sort of agree here.

Depending on how it was designed I could imagine you may end up adding 6 to 10kg to the bike weight with drive shafts and transmission parts. Those clutches and variators are heavy. And they would need to be to take the power. Then you will need to connect it all to the wheel again. Not sure on the power losses you would get through the trans, that alone might make the thing a know go. In saying that I have bits for you if you want.

[husaberg]

nice to know the angle from the frame rails to the fork head ? maybe close as it stands if it had the same lenth forks as a rs in it.. so would end up most the work would be in the swing arm pivit

Yeah from memory the mc16 fork are fairly short (but probably very much longer than a NF4 STD) but the head angle is way lazy as std on the MC16.
the major is taking out the extra 3 or so inches of spar length head angle can be tidied up with incerts if nes (as the head bearings are beafy)

it was an impossible to answer question.
My plan before i brought the NF4 frame.
was just to flip a nx4 frame upside down get the head angle positioned at ninety degrees the make another two vertical posts that would have a hole drilled for the position of the swingarm pivot.
then position the nsr frame in the basic jig upside down off course and hack out the spars to suit if that makes sense.
but seeing as you already have a substantial jig...................
the jig would look kind of like this only not be a pushbike and be upside down


I would assume that acuallly fairly close to how the Japanese actually manufacture the frames after the intitial frame is built.
maybe sir Stephen (our Japanese based corespondent) can confirm this

[jasonu]

, can kick NoMates arse - and runs all day, every day.
..

That is not what I have heard/read/seen/been told. Lots of let downs and blowing up is the way I understand that bikes history.

[TZ350]

nice to know the angle from the frame rails to the fork head ?

Mindful of the parallax error.

Zero for an early RS

7 deg for a NF4

5 deg for a MC16

It is the MC16 frame I am going to use. I have a complete RS250 front end for it and a magnesim 3.5x17 front for the rear and a light weight RS125 copy tank so I hope to be able to keep the weight down.

[husaberg]

Mindful of the parallax error.

Zero for an early RS

7 deg for a NF4

5 deg for a MC16

matches this representation of a MC? not sure which model but i will check....looks like mc18 from here which is well worth a look at the blog.....
http://edetuckracing.blogspot.co.nz/

[Buckets4Me]

I sort of agree here.

Depending on how it was designed I could imagine you may end up adding 6 to 10kg to the bike weight with drive shafts and transmission parts. Those clutches and variators are heavy. And they would need to be to take the power. Then you will need to connect it all to the wheel again. Not sure on the power losses you would get through the trans, that alone might make the thing a know go. In saying that I have bits for you if you want.

sounds like you are getting scared . It might way nearly as much as an fxr and have lots more power with no need to change gears

[wax]

Actually the whole setup would be lighter as there is not the same amount of steel gears.
The variator is made out of alloy.
There isa few gears in the back but as its only one gear its alot less

Total weight with oil is 17kg

http://www.minarelli.com/prodottieng.html

seems a sweedtech cr125 is 16.7 kilos

Im not sure how this compares to the engines you guys are running but I would say its close if not a bit lighter being a competition engine

http://www.swedetechracingengines.co...cc_engine.html

Im not sure what the gp1 engine weighs but it shorter then the one i posted so I would guess its at the same if not less

High rpm will be fine the cranks are developed to handle it just fine.
The aftermarket parts will handle it just fine. You will need to change the belts every 1000k to keep the top performance from your engine. As they wear it changes there angle of attack on the variator

[richban]

sounds like you are getting scared . It might way nearly as much as an fxr and have lots more power with no need to change gears

Yeah, but nah. My bike is making more ponies where it counts for kart tracks, she corners and generally is the shit. So nah. Tokoroa will be the beasts best chance to wind up. It has a nice long back straight. I have raced auto scooters and I can tell you now on a tight kart track I would go with the gears all day long. When you try to turn in a bike with no engine breaking at all, its the rear break and nothing else that gets it done. And with instant 30hp on tap good luck not hi siding that one. Yes you can adjust your riding style but I don't think it would be any advantage. To get the hole shot every race (which it could) you would have a bike that would bite so hard out of the corners you would be shitting yourself for sure. I am sure things have moved on with clutches and so on but I can't see how you could tune it for mega starts and also better power delivery out of corners. Happy to be proved wrong.

[wax]

Are you kidding hole-shots is what the cvt will give you.

The cvt is a weapon off the line. We were up against 85cc cr powered race bikes. You would holeshot them from back on the 2nd row.
I know mount wellington track I used to race kt100s on there. The cvt anillate will the gearbox bike into the top corner and you will end up playing from then on in.

You have to remember that you tune the cvt for the power of your engine so it will do both haul out of corners as well as off the line.
You can hold your engine on its power peak the entire track and at any speed if you can make the corners.

Your sitting on the power peak the whole time. If you tune a cvt wrong its easy to hold it on it the down slope of the rising slope as well and make a 30hp engine go like a 5hp engine if that where your holding the revs.

It would go great on the long tracks you would just have to change the sprockets on the chain. But that would be the same for the geared bikes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UpBKXMRto

Awesome in the rain due to the smoothness as well. And it is new zealand after all. its going to rain