The firearm thread

[frogfeaturesFZR]

Got a Garmin GPS. They are good but you still need a map. Useful for noting 'hot spots' when your hunting. Overall I'm happy with mine.

[Swoop]

12 March, 2013: For the last seven years the U.S. Army has been trying to replace its standard 9mm pistol (the M9). This is all the result of numerous and continuous complaints from troops, who have found that combat in Iraq and Afghanistan provides lots of situations where the pistol is a crucial weapon.

The current American Army pistol has been found wanting. The list of complaints is long. A big one is the dust and sand so common in Iraq and Afghanistan, which leads to magazine jams. That was partially fixed with a new magazine, but there were a lot of other problems that required a new pistol. The dust and sand tended to get into the loading mechanism because of the open-slide design. Other complaints included the lack of a rail on top for accessories, or threads so that a silencer can be screwed in.

Then there is the poor placement of the safety catch, the inability to adjust the hand grip to fit many different hand sizes and the difficulty users have in quickly replacing components in the field. The army is holding a competition for a new pistol, a process that is supposed to be completed in two years. Meanwhile the army is ordering new M9s to replace those bought in the 1980s that are dying of old age and lots of combat.

Army leadership has long resisted calls for a new pistol and ignored the different combat situations in Iraq and Afghanistan that were behind these pleas. There was just this mind-set that pistols were not that important.

Britain had a similar problem and recently adopted the Glock 17. This weapon is typical of the more modern designs the troops want. The Glock has long been very popular pistol with police and military users and one of many new models that have the new features the troops want.

The Glock 17 was designed by Gaston Glock 30 years ago and initially became enormously popular with policemen. Some armed forces use it, like Austria and Norway. There are over twenty variants, usually having to do with calibre. The American FBI, for instance, uses the 10.2mm (.40 calibre).

The Glock has a plastic (polymer) frame and can be safely carried in the holster, loaded and ready to fire. All one has to do is aim and pull the trigger. The Glock magazine carries 17 rounds compared to 15 in the M9. All these characteristics have proved enormously popular with police, who are often called on to use their pistol with no warning. In Iraq and Afghanistan troops often find themselves operating like SWAT teams and that made other pistols like the Glock appear so superior to the M9. Many troops would buy another pistol with their own money, a trend which has embarrassed the army leadership.

The Glock is a simple pistol and very reliable. The manufacturer has subjected the pistols to very extreme environmental tests and tweaked the pistol design to ensure that a Glock would always fire. Over 2.5 million Glocks have been manufactured in the last three decades, meaning that spare parts and servicing are easy to find.

There is also demand for a larger calibre round.
SOCOM (Special Operations Command) has ordered several larger calibre pistols for their troops over the last decade. Last year the U.S. Marine Corps ordered 12,000 .45 (11.4mm) caliber pistols (at $1,900 each) for its SOCOM and recon troops. Many troops want the old M1911 .45 calibre ACP pistol back. The M1911 was replaced by the M9 in the 1980s.

The M1911 is a 1.2 kg (2.45 pound) 210mm (8.25 inch) long weapon with a 127mm (5 inch) barrel and a 7 round magazine. Compared to the M9 9mm pistol the .45s have more hitting power, while the M9 is a bit more accurate at up to about 50 meters.

The new Marine .45s are not the old M1911A1 model but the more modern Colt CQBP (Close Quarter Battle Pistol), which uses the same ammo as the M1911A1 but has a number of improvements that make the weapon more reliable, flexible, and accurate. The CQBP holds eight rounds, is built to resist salt water corrosion, accept rail mounted accessories, and so on.

There are several improved .45s available because of demand from police departments and government agencies (like the FBI). In the 1990s SOCOM adopted the Heckler and Koch Mk 23 SOCOM model. This is a 1.47 kg (3.2 pound) .45 pistol with a 12-round magazine and the ability to carry a silencer.
It is expensive, at $2,400 each. Loaded with a silencer and laser aiming device the Mk23 weighs 2.29 kg (5 pounds). The Mk23 is a precision weapon, capable of accurate fire at 50 meters (51mm/two inch shot groups).

The Mk 23 is for offensive operations while the lighter and cheaper USP Tactical model was later introduced for personal protection and other duties not requiring the heavier Mk 23.
Over the last decade American troops in Iraq and Afghanistan discovered, through combat experience, what types of weapons worked best at close range to take down the enemy. It was the same with SWAT teams and commandos all over the world.

When conducting a raid and finding yourself up close and personal with someone trying to kill you, there is a need for a heavy calibre pistol or a shotgun (firing 00 shot or slugs). The premier pistol for ensuring you take down someone is still the .45 calibre (11.4mm) or .40 calibre (10mm, but only with a heavy bullet) pistols. These weapons are light and handy, compared to assault rifles or shotguns, and have a long history of quickly taking down an armed and determined foe.

As the U.S. Army Special Forces discovered, if you are well trained and know what you are doing, you should carry a pistol, in addition to your rifle. But not the official issue (since 1985) M9, but something with a bit more stopping power. The Special Forces prefer new model .45 calibre pistols, although 10mm weapons are also popular. The reason for this is that you are most likely to be using the pistol indoors, where your target is going to be really close. You want to knock him down quickly, before he can get at you with a knife or even his hands. Many troops are getting their own pistols and most commanders have been lenient on this issue. The same applies to shotguns. Although the army and marines have bought a lot of them (the Benelli M4 Combat Shotgun is a particular favourite), there never seem to be enough of them for some units (that spend a lot of time raiding buildings in hostile neighbourhoods).

The U.S. military adopted the 9mm pistol in 1985, largely to standardize ammunition. All other NATO states used 9mm for pistols. The U.S. also noted that most 9mm pistols were carried by officers and support personnel, who rarely used them in combat.
SOCOM came into being a few years later and immediately began planning to bring back .45 pistols. Actually, many Special Forces and SEAL operators never gave up using the .45, as it was the ideal pistol for many commando operations.

[nseagoon]

a 9mm is definitely a good pistol to have and as pointed out because it is standardised parts and ammo are cheap and available.
however I wouldn't say glock is the answer. while it advertises "safe action" the only thing that can decide between safe and unsafe should be the person behind the firearm.
and other firearms have their place. Sig Sauer and CZ have made good names for themselves both in sporting and military markets.

.45 wouldn't be ideal even though it is standardised due to low magazine capacity and if you went for a double stack mag you then are carrying more weight. That's one of the reasons everyone went to 5.56 and dropped 7.62. it's that much heavier and bulkier.
maybe 10mm or .40 cal might be the good middle ground but that won't be happening in the near future. it's the same as all western militarys are going to go to a type of 6mm rifle round but can't due to the amount of deployments and current arms and ammo in circulation.

but as I said, plastic fantastic clocks ain't no answer

[scumdog]

a 9mm is definitely a good pistol to have and as pointed out because it is standardised parts and ammo are cheap and available.
however I wouldn't say glock is the answer. while it advertises "safe action" the only thing that can decide between safe and unsafe should be the person behind the firearm.

I like the Glock (any calibre) since once loaded you just need to point and pull,

No safety, no external hammer, no grip safety.

And 9mm is kinda OK - fire a shot and the target doesn't do as you want? Then there's another 16 rounds to go...

[nseagoon]

I like the Glock (any calibre) since once loaded you just need to point and pull,

No safety, no external hammer, no grip safety.

And 9mm is kinda OK - fire a shot and the target doesn't do as you want? Then there's another 16 rounds to go...

they same as many handguns. don't get me wrong. they are good for the price. and they are point and shoot. however I never use the safety on a handgun and then worse case scenario you are shooting the first shot double action then the rest are single action.

the difference with glocks is only a procedural one. the Sig in the NZ military doesn't have a safety and it's used with the decocker. just means that if you mean to kill someone you will use double the trigger pressure for the first shot. no less reliable than a glock though.

I've seen glock stoppages countless times (also beretta and cz) and I've seen them cook off in intense testing and the top slide break off one and damage to more than one within only 1000 rounds in its life. although I think I've just happened to see the lemons of a good bunch, I still wouldn't call them the answer.

[Swoop]

That's one of the reasons everyone went to 5.56 and dropped 7.62

We are going back to 7.62. The new SAW is that calibre.

Have seen the results of a Glock blowing up. Very unusual, but it can happen.

[nseagoon]

We are going back to 7.62. The new SAW is that calibre.

Have seen the results of a Glock blowing up. Very unusual, but it can happen.

the SAW is going to 7.62, not the IW.
not everyone is carrying a minimi so only fatty has to carry the 7.62.

if there is a future change for the IW it won't be back to 7.62, it'll be some american developed 6mm round. in between the two.
the right balance between weight and power. probably on an AR based platform too.
everyone is just waiting for the US to wind up internationally and minimise their troops overseas is my guess

[leathel]

Anyone got any experience and advice about these handheld GPS things ?

Myself and Goblin are considering supplementing the cupboard with the local produce around Vegas.

I have had a few different ones for hunting, Maps are a must have as it makes it so much easier to find the best way (can see the bluffs etc)

had garmin's, etrex mapped, 62s, now have the rihno

Went aftermarket topo maps so I can load it to all my gps's without getting new numbers of Garmin like I have to with my marine maps..

Latest GPS I have got is the Zumo for the bike

[Flip]

I was issued with a SLR, loved the old thing. Qualified on the my first range day. My brother who was about 20kg lighter than me hated the SLR, but loved his steyr and went to represent the NZ army in shooting competitions.

As far as the 9/45 argument goes I know what I would want to have. The old 1911's do go off with a wallop.

I finally got my Excell Arms 17 hmr Accelerator rifle back from the gun smith, sighted it in yesterday at work so we are all ready for the Easter Bunny Hunt. I broke a firing pin and the rifle had a life time warranty which wasn't worth used toilet paper. Anybody going to the EBH? I am in Team Bastard.

[Flip]

Had a great easter bunnt hunt. Mostly used my Saiga shot gun.

Broke a front axle on the landy pulling a trailer full of bunnies up a steep farm track.

[caseye]

glad to hear you only broke a Landy axle, some poor dolt shot himself with a shotty down there.First time for the EBH.
Double last years tally too, seems more possies and rabbit that ever. More shooters, bigger bounties.
The EBH is an event I'd like to get to before it's topped for "safety reasons"

[Flip]

Well we always have space for another shooter.

Get in contact about 6 weeks before easter next year. The cheapest way would be to fly into Chch and get a ride down with a team Bastard member. Just bring a pack and a shot gun (best tool for the job), get a slab of ammo at the event and otherwise travel light. We always bring far too much stuff anyway.

[Juniper]

Whoo hoo now I am in my happy place!

[jono035]

Wow, a month between posts... It's getting quiet in here...

What is everyone up to?

I've been taking a crack at shooting some IPSC. Bought myself a Glock 17, holster etc.

Now looks like I might need to up my reloading capacity so looking at a XL650 with casefeeder etc.

Funny how things get out of hand...

[Juniper]

Wow, a month between posts... It's getting quiet in here...

What is everyone up to?

I've been taking a crack at shooting some IPSC. Bought myself a Glock 17, holster etc.

Now looks like I might need to up my reloading capacity so looking at a XL650 with casefeeder etc.

Funny how things get out of hand...

You shoot in Auckland?

I'm going to be finishing some induction training soon and then want to really train in ISSF and IPSC. Kinda eyeing up NRA too, but it would be kinda wankish to become a pro in all 3