Pro Rider training

[Madness]

I have been through a few trainers.

Like a dose of the shits.

Motorcycles. Just ride the fucking things.

[bosslady]

No what Im saying is that this particular course he went on had failures. So maybe they show a lack of consistency which you don't want in a training provider.

I have been through a few trainers. One was a IAM trained observer. He highlighted more issues in 3 hours than any other training put together. I would like to go through the IAM one day when I have the time to spare.

Fair enough. But people keep going on about IAM and saying don't do this, don't do that, this isn't appropriate for a newbie etc. (I mean courses and shit) IAM aren't interested in doing anything with me until I've been riding quite a bit longer. Fair enough, and they were polite about it but someone like me has to find something to do or somewhere to go, IAM isn't for everybody? or at least not me, quite yet.. lol... Hopefully something good will come from the OPs feedback but IMO it shouldn't mean that people shouldn't bother with it, just saying...

[nzspokes]

Fair enough. But people keep going on about IAM and saying don't do this, don't do that, this isn't appropriate for a newbie etc. (I mean courses and shit) IAM aren't interested in doing anything with me until I've been riding quite a bit longer. Fair enough, and they were polite about it but someone like me has to find something to do or somewhere to go, IAM isn't for everybody? or at least not me, quite yet.. lol... Hopefully something good will come from the OPs feedback but IMO it shouldn't mean that people shouldn't bother with it, just saying...

Im not saying don't get training at what ever level. Just look for trainers with suitable qualifications for motorcycles.

[nerrrd]

I have been through a few trainers. One was a IAM trained observer. He highlighted more issues in 3 hours than any other training put together. I would like to go through the IAM one day when I have the time to spare.

I had a similar experience with Phil from Riderskills, brought up so many things I'd never thought of my brain hurt at the end of it. Ideally everyone would take the time and effort to do IAM training, but not everyone can afford to spend that time and effort (would there even be enough observers for that?)

This was a one day course, subsidised by Auckland Transport; it's never going to be a substitute for something as comprehensive as IAM. That's not to say it shouldn't be as good as it can be within those parameters, and constructive criticism is fair enough.

[bosslady]

Im not saying don't get training at what ever level. Just look for trainers with suitable qualifications for motorcycles.

Fair point.

[nzspokes]

I had a similar experience with Phil from Riderskills, brought up so many things I'd never thought of my brain hurt at the end of it. Ideally everyone would take the time and effort to do IAM training, but not everyone can afford to spend that time and effort (would there even be enough observers for that?)

This was a one day course, subsidised by Auckland Transport; it's never going to be a substitute for something as comprehensive as IAM. That's not to say it shouldn't be as good as it can be within those parameters, and constructive criticism is fair enough.

Agreed. I did mine with Phil. I think just the course with him would be a great starting point for most.

[Kev The Rev]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totalled five in all.

I am unable to comment on the content of the group riding that you participated in, as I simply was not privy to what transpired within that group, fact or fiction.
I did recognize you before you set off and spoke briefly with you. I also questioned why and to what possible purpose you were on your course or indeed if you had a hidden agenda, I only wish you had been allocated to my group, who knows you may have actually learnt something.

So I will let the other instructors take up your comments, either way, positive or negative the only outcome will be positive for all riders of all ages and all levels, without challenge we are nothing, we cannot proceed to higher levels.

I also say in print here, now that as yet I have discussed with no one the contents of your remarks, my letter is spontaneous, unsolicited and are strictly my views and my views alone, they do not necessarily reflect the official view of Prorider, period.

So I will reiterate, in plain simple English, I can only comment on my training day as you seem to have assumed to much without even having the decency to ask my students at the end of the day what they thought nor have the decency to ask me.

So let us analyze exactly what you have said and eliminate fiction from truth. Firstly you mention I had someone to assist, that part is correct with the emphasise on (assist) that persons sole role was to rear guard and support me, not to instruct.
You also make a cheap side swipe about the abilities of the person you say (I know the person and the skill level) I can only presume that you make that remark in the sense that that persons riding skills are sub standard or poor? I can assure you that the person in question can ride safer, smoother than many other people. That person has also been on many training modules including one of my own. Therefore, no Roger, you are wrong here.

Just for the for the record I am a fully qualified motorcycle instructor, car and class 2 truck New Zealand I endorsed certified instructor. I am also UK trained. I have also trained with UK Police motorcyclists, UK Police ride safe programme, German Police motorcyclists and Dutch police motorcyclists and taken part in training modules with our own superb Manakua police motorcyclists to set up new rider training modules to teach students (civilians). I am also an NZ NZTA course provider/examiner. I have also been assessed in unit standards 3466, 14511, 14521, 14523, 16646, 16647, 20179, 20180 for driver endorsement. I started and run Bayride motorcycling training and am currently running Moto City riding school in conjunction with Western bay training school. Just for the record, our pass rate for licence , all levels training and testing is nearly 100%. So with reference to your totally unqualified, un researched and dare I say it slanderous remarks about unqualified instructors I hope this will give (you the reader) some confidence. So Roger no, you are wrong here as well.

I have had the pleasure of riding all over the World in many disciplines since the age of 5, some 50 years ago. I am NOT an old dog who is unable to learn new tricks and to my many, many mates, students that know me would agree that I am absolutely passionate about Safety and training.

Your remarks with regards to feed back, being taught, time to put into practise, not enough time given to individual riders is a travesty of the truth. My group had an extensive pre ride discussion and all road protocol was discussed. Each machine was checked over (I am also a master technician) before they left the car park. All were of road legal standard.
I can assure you that each one of the students was mentored individually and constant feed back, up skilling progressed throughout the day in no less than over twenty-two stops with the specific purpose to speak with individuals to counter negative road practises and give constant assurance and praise where deserved.
The level of improvement in these riders by late afternoon was phenomenal. I would without hesitation ride any where and at any time with these guys and girls and it was an absolute privilege to ride home from Auckland to Tauranga that eve knowing that and yes I rode up in the early morning as well Roger, my time and no payment, just commitment.

On a personal point you have shown great dishonor to yours, mine and the readers fellow deceased riders be it from racing or road riding and quite frankly I find it disgraceful. One of my best mates was killed and he also wore with pride his IAM badge like you, (I do not have one , nor do I want one as I find the system a bit robotic and not enough individuality) but alas it didn't save him when he was taken out by a car at night coming down the wrong side of a motorway in Germany one cold wet and lonely wintry night. The police and medics that found him said it took him over two hours to die, alone in a ditch in ice cold water, so please don’t play that card with me. I know one thing Roger and that is if students learn just one thing from a training day then that’s a day well spent and just maybe it may save a life, eh.

So Roger you mention your few years training, but not where or who with, please think about putting to use your obvious skills, become a trainer and I will be the 1st one to sign up with you, any training is good, eh?

As for my statements, this is what I propose to do.

Roger I stand by my beliefs and to that end, I am personally going to contact the 5 students (I never met them before, nor do I know them now) and with Pro riders permission ask them to write a short letter on how they felt the training day went (positive or negative) with the permission of the students post the letters here on this web site so that (you readers and fellow bikers can be the judges)

Let’s see what the outcome will be and I bet a bottle of scotch that my words will stand tall and straight and remember all you readers :riding is everything, anything before or after is just waiting, ride safe all, Kev.

[Gremlin]

I think any training is better than a rider doing nothing, however, teaching the wrong thing (or misleading the students into thinking they are riding well, by not bringing up points) could be considered as dangerous as no training.

Training or upskilling is not something to be completed in one day. It's an ongoing commitment throughout your riding life. Go for a ride, get assessed, work on the items, more assessment and so on. The instruction has to be specifically tailored to each rider, as each one is different in their skill set and bad habits.

A newbie will be swamped with all the information that could be provided in a single day, whereas an experienced rider will pick up a couple of items to work on.

The basics is following all the road rules, which for many, is harder than you think. If these aren't being rigidly followed, then it's definitely a failing on the providers part. Of course, it's a human element, and you're not going to get the exact same outcome between every day from the same instructor, nor exact consistency amongst the instructors. Once you have a good base, you can build skills from there.

Different providers will follow different teaching methods and principles, even with a different focus. I've found it best to merge all those bits of advice into your overall riding, taking the best bits from each one.

IAM comes from the UK police rider training, and is mostly rigid. Not for everyone, I personally think it's the best for sealed road roadcraft, therefore, I'm in it.

[nzspokes]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totalled five in all.

What were the qualification's of the other trainers? Were they qualified motorcycle trainers?

It would seem there are very different views on what happened on the same day. When I did mine it was run as one on one, why is that not still the case?

Good on you for speaking up.

[Maha]

What were the qualification's of the other trainers? Were they qualified motorcycle trainers?

Yes some clarification on htis would good, Roger said there were 4 instructors (and surely there would be all instructors on a course of this nature?) yet Kev mentions one only.

[raftn]

Hi Roger and hi everyone who has read this, is reading this now or who reads this in the future. I would like to give a fair and balanced opinion to the remarks that you have raised Roger. For the record, my name is Kev and I am the Instructor that led the Learner and restricted group which totaled five in all. .

Thanks for you comments Kev, I was not on your course so can not offer an opinion on how it went, I can only base my opinion on the course I was on and the training that was provided. As you state you were not in attendance on this course.

Please note though you "assistant" must still be I indorsed if she is getting paid for her day. AS she is an employee of Pro rider I presume this was the case.

‘If you teach people how to drive on a road for financial or commercial gain, you must have a current driving instructor endorsement on your driver licence. This is called an I endorsement.’
'
http://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/fa...orsements.html

Pro rider has asked for a feed back, I have forwarded a copy of this blog through to them yesterday.

[Edbear]

An interesting response from an obviously highly qualified and passionate instructor. As you say, Kev, you can only speak for yourself and we can only accept your word as to your level of training provided and have no reason to doubt you at all.

It would be good to have a response from the other instructors on Roger's ride as they too, no doubt, will have a different perspective. Your plan to ask the students to provide their feedback is good an something all training providers should commission regularly. Often the message we give out is received differently from the way we intended and people do tend to get things mixed up.

Great that you did come on here and provide your side of he story! Thanks for that and I hope many more riders take advantage of attending such courses as you run.

[ready2ride]

Everyones experiece with training can be completely different, and they will gain different things from it, each with their own mindset and views on things.

I want to back up prorider after such a direct report. I have personally attended 3 of the Prorider training days over the past 4 years on the track. Each and every time I have gained a huge amount out of the day and believe I am a safer rider as a result of what they have assisted me with and taught me. I have each time had a different instructor leading the group I was assigned to for the day. Each instructer specified they were certified motorcycle instructors. The theory was taught each time in a whole group, and then we would head out onto the track to put the theory into practice, isolating each skill each time we headed out. The trainers would follow us around and watch us how we handled our machines. We would then regroup off our bikes and recieve feedback as a group and individually from our instructor.

I found the instructors to be extrememly professional and experienced, with excellent feedback to each of us as to how we could handle our own bike a little better. As for the lead instructor not having a road legal bike... A very unjustified comment as their bike is not used on the road, it is a track bike only. The training in based on the track therefore the bike is suitable to demonstating us the skills in that environment. I found having the trianing on the track absolutely fanstastic. Not because I wanted to go fast, but because all of the usual hazards on the road had been eliminated, traffic lights, cars, a centre line, debre. Yes all very very important factors on the road that we must learn how to react to, but being on the track allows you to focus on your riding skills, how the bike feels, how YOU feel on the bike, in a safer environment to be able to do so.

We practiced emergency breaking with each break on its own to learn the limits of these brakes and exactly how effective they were. Then together in the right balance for the best possible breaking from your own bike in an emergency situation. I have used this skill a handful of times on the road and now know exactly what my breaks are capable of and how it feels when a wheel begins to lock up so that I can release it before it does and become dangerous.

Yes, the same level course 3 times. No I am not a muppet, just gained so much each time for the course that I felt it was in my best interest to go back again and refresh my skills, and assist them to become second nature as they are now becoming.

We had a speed limit of 100km for the day so it was not a day to go fast and see how you could ride the track. The track was treated as a single lane of the road, and we learnt where to place ourselves in corners in relation to the centre line for the best possible exit in our lane on the road with the best possible view of hazards through each corner.

I have done this on 3 different courses now and each time learnt MY bike and better ways to imporve my skills on each particular bike.

I am a more confident and safer rider because of these trainers at Prorider, who are porfessional and certified instructors.

I am sorry to hear you had such a bad experience with them. I have no boubt they will take on your feedback and asses how they can improve on certain things to cater for a larger range of riders. But from my experince I think the training I recieved was exceptional training and thank them solely for being the rider I am today who continues to go through training and improve on my skills.

Not the same for everyone, but just my feedback on ProRider from my own experiences.

[raftn]

Everyones experiece with training can be completely different, and they will gain different things from it, each with their own mindset and views on things.


I found the instructors to be extrememly professional and experienced, with excellent feedback to each of us as to how we could handle our own bike a little better. As for the lead instructor not having a road legal bike... A very unjustified comment as their bike is not used on the road, it is a track bike only. The training in based on the track therefore the bike is suitable to demonstating us the skills in that environment. I found having the trianing on the track absolutely fanstastic. Not because I wanted to go fast, but because all of the usual hazards on the road had been eliminated, traffic lights, cars, a centre line, debre. Yes all very very important factors on the road that we must learn how to react to, but being on the track allows you to focus on your riding skills, how the bike feels, how YOU feel on the bike, in a safer environment to be able to do so.

.

I appreciate-your comments, but this was Road based training, ALL training was completed on the road, A road legal bike is a requirement.

[ready2ride]

I appreciate-your comments, but this was Road based training, ALL training was completed on the road, A road legal bike is a requirement.

Thank you clarifying that. My apologies, when I had attended their training they were only providing their courses on the track. I had heard they were now also doing it on the road. Mine was also road based training, but on the safety of the track.

In your case I now understand that the bike should be questioned.