ANZACs and war and stuff

[blue rider]

Ed specifically raised the issue of conscientious objectors in his first post. When no-one took the bait he made another post, asking how people feel about it.

Refusal of military service is a key part of JW doctrine.

Ed is a master of his craft, and a very careful word-smith - he will of course be along soon to deny such insinuations about his motives, and to offer some insults in response. But his carefully disguised motives are quite clear.

I think that today of all days, it is not appropriate.

I don't care much about Ed's believes, they are his and his alone.

However, the Jehova Witnesses in Nazi Germany suffered a brutal treatment for a variety of reason.

They, like so many others that did not tow the official governmental line in Germany were send to Concentration Camps in large numbers. They were "lucky" to escape the extermination policies that killed 6 million + jews, 250.000 + Gypsies, 5 - 15.000 + homosexuals (no one really knows as they were not counted as diligently as other groups) and many others that never made it out alive..

It should at least be acknowledged that JW suffered for their believes and their refusal to serve in the German Army, and to even use the Nazi Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecu...n_Nazi_Germany

This is written history in Germany and can not be denied.

[mashman]

Of course it's political, and if it's not political, it's economic.

How many of our Allies were in Timor?
What benefit did NZ accrue apart from helping a neighbour?

You're the sort that cheered Chamberlain.
"Peace in our time".

It's only political or economic because they're the only terms you understand.

I don't know.
I don't know.

If he wanted "peace in our time", then you can bet your arse that that's what I want.
What type are you? It's justified, let the slaughter begin? Sorry, let the collateral damage begin?

[Usarka]

Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died.

[Bikemad]

Ed is a master of his craft, and a very careful word-smith

nah i have to disagree with that...........i and many others have had him fucked on his favourite topic on many occasions...........and it's easy to tell when he is struggling as he and his type will then fall back on the old "scripture" argument as evidence and/or start hurling abuse...........i think he is a sad lonely man and....... why the fuck is he even here when he doesn't ride a bike?

[Oscar]

Not sure the old cunts would want people to be debating politics etc on anzac day instead of paying respect to those who served and those who died.

They would if it went any way to avoiding a repeat of the war in which they served...

[Oscar]

It's only political or economic because they're the only terms you understand.

I don't know.
I don't know.

If he wanted "peace in our time", then you can bet your arse that that's what I want.
What type are you? It's justified, let the slaughter begin? Sorry, let the collateral damage begin?

It's only political or economic because you started blathering about resources and such.
If you don't know why we went to Timor, why do you post?

[Usarka]

They would if it went any way to avoiding a repeat of the war in which they served...

Yeah I'm sure you jokers arguing on the internet today is going to prevent a war.....

War is politics, and with politics most people can only accept views that match their firmly held beliefs.

[mashman]

It's only political or economic because you started blathering about resources and such.
If you don't know why we went to Timor, why do you post?

I gave it as a reason that I wouldn't go to war in response to the OP.
I'm not fool enough to believe that war isn't inevitable where some zealot is wiping people out for whatever reason, and I understand and support soldiers going to "right" that "wrong". But I am fundamentally against war.

[FJRider]

I think that today of all days, it is not appropriate.

He enjoys the same freedoms as you. Freedoms for which many died ... in the hope those freedoms were protected.

He has his own opinions ... as do you. His own beliefs ... as do you.

He has the right to express/voice his opinions ... as do you. Regardless of the fact that you, any, all ... (or none) are in agreement.

With either of you.



I think today of all days ... it is appropriate that you remember that.

[far queue]

It’s a shame that threads like this end up with the children bickering.

My dad was called up at 18 and sent to Italy at 21 in 1944. He was returned home about a year later injured. As a kid I used to ask him what he did in the war and he would tell me he was a cook. But as I got older, and he let more bits and pieces slip on the rare occasion, the cook story didn’t sound right to me. Eventually I found out that he was actually a private that served in the frontline, saw some nasty stuff, and had some close calls. I figured that the cook story was just to stop his young son, who didn’t know better, from asking “how many germans did you kill dad”. I still remember asking him that. He never had anything to do with the RSA and used to say he wasn’t interested in going there as they were just a bunch of old buggers reliving the past and why couldn’t they just let it go. In the last few years before he died he started to tell me about a few of his experiences. It didn’t happen often but when it did I just shut up and let him go.

Today is his birthday.

[bluninja]

I don't have a tradition for ANZAC day, for me it's historically been Remembrance Sunday and Armistice day. It's always good to focus on the benefits and freedoms we have today as a reult of the sacrifices of others in the past. Whilst it's great to give thanks in a public way, I always wonder ....why is there a poppy apeeal? If we really appreciate the sacrifices borne by the armed forces as a nation (UK included), why aren't they being cared for in their need (eg financial hardship, medical and mental health issues)?

The closest I got to an active warzone was when the container ship I was on was going to be retasked to the south atlantic, we all had the option of leaving the ship if it happened, but nobody did. When I returned to Portsmouth I spoke to a few navy chaps, totally fucked up emotionally; surviving, but witnessing their mates being blown up and burnt. There seemed to be no support for them after the fighting. Conscientious objector? I would never know unless I was in the position to make the choice. I think that would apply to many people.

[Edbear]

Of course it's political, and if it's not political, it's economic.

How many of our Allies were in Timor?
What benefit did NZ accrue apart from helping a neighbour?

You're the sort that cheered Chamberlain.
"Peace in our time".

If you go back to his OP, he was against war over resources, not defending people from invasion.

I don't care much about Ed's believes, they are his and his alone.

However, the Jehova Witnesses in Nazi Germany suffered a brutal treatment for a variety of reason.

They, like so many others that did not tow the official governmental line in Germany were send to Concentration Camps in large numbers. They were "lucky" to escape the extermination policies that killed 6 million + jews, 250.000 + Gypsies, 5 - 15.000 + homosexuals (no one really knows as they were not counted as diligently as other groups) and many others that never made it out alive..

It should at least be acknowledged that JW suffered for their believes and their refusal to serve in the German Army, and to even use the Nazi Salute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecu...n_Nazi_Germany

This is written history in Germany and can not be denied.

Thanks. JW's were known for their neutrality world wide. If we went to war for the Allies, we would have done so for the Axis. JW's are a world wide Brotherhood and it is unthinkable for one JW to attack another. This is one of the reasons so many soldiers formed a hatred for religion, as they saw Brothers of the same church killing each other in the name of God, each side's Pastors blessing their army and saying "God is on our side!"

Contrary to some views, we are not pacifists, either, just politically neutral. Personally I never criticise those who went to war and have enormous empathy for what they went through.

Also contrary to some here, I am genuinely interested in their views.

It’s a shame that threads like this end up with the children bickering.

My dad was called up at 18 and sent to Italy at 21 in 1944. He was returned home about a year later injured. As a kid I used to ask him what he did in the war and he would tell me he was a cook. But as I got older, and he let more bits and pieces slip on the rare occasion, the cook story didn’t sound right to me. Eventually I found out that he was actually a private that served in the frontline, saw some nasty stuff, and had some close calls. I figured that the cook story was just to stop his young son, who didn’t know better, from asking “how many germans did you kill dad”. I still remember asking him that. He never had anything to do with the RSA and used to say he wasn’t interested in going there as they were just a bunch of old buggers reliving the past and why couldn’t they just let it go. In the last few years before he died he started to tell me about a few of his experiences. It didn’t happen often but when it did I just shut up and let him go.

Today is his birthday.

It is sad that some want to express their bigotry rather than have a proper discussion. My Dad was in the home guard and while never discussed much it was treated as a bit of fun at the time, but with serious undertones.

[Berries]

Now Afghan biscuits are another matter.

[Edbear]

I don't have a tradition for ANZAC day, for me it's historically been Remembrance Sunday and Armistice day. It's always good to focus on the benefits and freedoms we have today as a reult of the sacrifices of others in the past. Whilst it's great to give thanks in a public way, I always wonder ....why is there a poppy apeeal? If we really appreciate the sacrifices borne by the armed forces as a nation (UK included), why aren't they being cared for in their need (eg financial hardship, medical and mental health issues)?

The closest I got to an active warzone was when the container ship I was on was going to be retasked to the south atlantic, we all had the option of leaving the ship if it happened, but nobody did. When I returned to Portsmouth I spoke to a few navy chaps, totally fucked up emotionally; surviving, but witnessing their mates being blown up and burnt. There seemed to be no support for them after the fighting. Conscientious objector? I would never know unless I was in the position to make the choice. I think that would apply to many people.

Maybe I'm missing something, but how old are you?

[Katman]

Also contrary to some here, I am genuinely interested in their views.

Bollocks. You were never after rational debate - you were after a reaction.

The flippant tone of the thread title shows how little respect you have for the subject.