Property costs in NZ - the heart of evil

[slowpoke]

I never said or implied

It's OK to invest in land and force up land costs, but it's not ok to invest in housing?

Eh?! How else do you interpret this:

"Forcing people to sell land cheaper than the market will pay would ruin some people and would be unfair to those who have invested. It would be interfering directly with the market to create an artificial impediment to natural market forces."



Communities can own houses. They can be tax exempt (as they don't invest for profit). If a community can't provide housing to cater for an increasing worker population (that can't afford local housing prices), then there are Hotels, Motels, Boarding houses etc which can grow to meet demand (they are businesses and pay taxes on all aspects of potential profit). If not, then growth through centralisation will stall and imo that is not a negative.

Jeezus, what are we, a kibbutz now? How do communities go about building/buying property? Who's gonna pay for that? Council Rates are exhorbitant already and most people are battling to pay for their own house let alone pay to house other people. And when was the last time you stayed in a Motel/Hotel etc? It's a helluva lot more expensive than any current rental that's for sure.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Jeezus, what are we, a kibbutz now? How do communities go about building/buying property? Who's gonna pay for that? Council Rates are exhorbitant already and most people are battling to pay for their own house let alone pay to house other people. And when was the last time you stayed in a Motel/Hotel etc? It's a helluva lot more expensive than any current rental that's for sure.

Communities already buy and own properties and they spend hundreds of millions on less worthy shit, incl entertainment.

Rent

About three months ago

Yes $160 a night for 2 people is, but it could have been $50 (as a day rate and less on a monthly rate) which isn't out of line with rental rates.

[Madness]

And when was the last time you stayed in a Motel/Hotel etc? It's a helluva lot more expensive than any current rental that's for sure.

I stay in motels a lot for work. $90 per night for a tidy yet run-of-the-mill single bedroom unit is attainable in most North Island towns & cities. I rent in Auckland and up until recently was paying a pretty median-priced $450 per week for 3 bedrooms with a double gargre, nothing flash & in the burbs. When you consider that for $90 per night in a motel you're getting free electricity, water, milk & laundry done (not to mention the furniture) the difference isn't that staggering when comparing to $65 per night for 3-bedrooms, full kitchen & a gargre by the time you add electricity, water & laundry.

Auckland is pretty fucked if you're not already on the ladder.

[mashman]

I think adding dollars into circulation would work perfectly ok as long as it is limited to the increase in national product (not productivity) and that the increase in product is measured net of retired product (such as broken or functional but abandoned product that goes to the tip). This would mean that in some years money would be added (but fuck all) and other years money would have to be taken out of circulation. Then the amount of money will always match the value of product and the dollar wouldn't devalue/product price wouldn't inflate. The form of the money doesn't matter as long as it can't easily be counterfeited and isn't a finite resource (like gold). We could even go back to wooden tally sticks

Other than "printing" more money (virtual or not), which is an infinite resource, I can't see anything changing other than a shifting of the deckchairs. The same social issues will remain. The same corporate structures and philosophy will remain. The same value will remain (just a different "currency"). The same people will remain in power. So what really changes by changing the currency? We've tried it for an awful long time. The system has failed. It limits what can be achieved. For example:

We need more houses. They're too expensive for some where "currency" is the requirement for building the property. The manpower is there, as are the physical resources for building the houses. What's the limiting factor? It's not how much "currency" people get paid, because inflation/interest rates will ensure that prices will always rise and when you tag on a little (a little, tui) bit of speculation in order to obtain more "currency", the issue becomes obvious.

The pisser is, we could house 20+ thousand people within a year. Whilst it may not be the flashiest of digs, a roof over your head is a roof over your head. The problem with not being able to achieve what I'm about to offer as a "solution" is due to "currency". Quite simply, we need to convert "useless" warehouses and offices into housing. These places already have the required utilities, so the main problem will be manpower and logistics in regards to partitioning and training. How many people could work from home? I know plenty who could and given the tech available for instant communication and information flow, it is more than possible to free up offices to convert into flats/houses. Again, the main stumbling block is "currency". The insane bit, it's all very possible.

[blue rider]

Not sure about the approach, but I agree with making some sort of incentive to get businesses to spread out of Auckland. Too much focus of Auckland being the be-all and end-all.

-Indy

so good it needed to be repeated.
there are a lot of businesses the could be 'incentivise' to locate elsewhere in NZ to provide much needed jobs. But for some reason some think that forcing another 1 million odd peeps into AKL is an awesome idea.

go figure.

[flyingcrocodile46]

Other than "printing" more money (virtual or not), which is an infinite resource, I can't see anything changing other than a shifting of the deckchairs. The same social issues will remain. The same corporate structures and philosophy will remain. The same value will remain (just a different "currency"). The same people will remain in power. So what really changes by changing the currency? We've tried it for an awful long time. The system has failed. It limits what can be achieved. For example:

We need more houses. They're too expensive for some where "currency" is the requirement for building the property. The manpower is there, as are the physical resources for building the houses. What's the limiting factor? It's not how much "currency" people get paid, because inflation/interest rates will ensure that prices will always rise and when you tag on a little (a little, tui) bit of speculation in order to obtain more "currency", the issue becomes obvious.

The pisser is, we could house 20+ thousand people within a year. Whilst it may not be the flashiest of digs, a roof over your head is a roof over your head. The problem with not being able to achieve what I'm about to offer as a "solution" is due to "currency". Quite simply, we need to convert "useless" warehouses and offices into housing. These places already have the required utilities, so the main problem will be manpower and logistics in regards to partitioning and training. How many people could work from home? I know plenty who could and given the tech available for instant communication and information flow, it is more than possible to free up offices to convert into flats/houses. Again, the main stumbling block is "currency". The insane bit, it's all very possible.

TLDNR

Shit! I'm a busy man and don't have time to jump, tear down or side step all the hurdles you throw up.

But the short answer is that IMO, progress to your objectives (yes read your blog) might realistically be made through a gradual introduction of pathways to utopia and a gradual weaning off of our addiction to casino chips. But you have to wean us off or it will all fall into anarchy and rebirth as a clone striving for the golden age that preceded the dark ages from which we will emerge.

[mashman]

TLDNR

Shit! I'm a busy man and don't have time to jump, tear down or side step all the hurdles you throw up.

But the short answer is that IMO, progress to your objectives (yes read your blog) might realistically be made through a gradual introduction of pathways to utopia and a gradual weaning off of our addiction to casino chips. But you have to wean us off or it will all fall into anarchy and rebirth as a clone striving for the golden age that preceded the dark ages from which we will emerge.

I'm not doing any of this to make people feel bad. I'm doing it because I am sure that 99% of people really don't want to make bad situations worse and really will feel bad about themselves when (if ever) they eventually do find out the truth and realise (in hindsight from lessons in history) that given how obvious it was, they really should have known better and further realise they abdicated responsibility to even pretend they cared enough to be as fully informed as practically possible.

It isn't enough that governments must answer to the people.

The people have to answer to themselves and each other in respect to their individual duty as human beings to be well enough informed to know what their governments are doing and the consequences of those doings, and they must voice their concerns openly that they might either be satisfactorily allayed or properly considered by the community and acted on accordingly. NOT SILENCED

As a species we have a very poor track record in this respect and incomprehensible human suffering is the result of our failure. If it is to change, we must make a concerted (and yes, uncomfortable) never ceasing effort to not only reject the status quo, but to never stop striving to improve on and be more responsible and accountable to and for each other.

[flyingcrocodile46]

I'm not doing any of this to make people feel bad. I'm doing it because I am sure that 99% of people really don't want to make bad situations worse and really will feel bad about themselves when (if ever) they eventually do find out the truth and realise (in hindsight from lessons in history) that given how obvious it was, they really should have known better and further realise they abdicated responsibility to even pretend they cared enough to be as fully informed as practically possible.

It isn't enough that governments must answer to the people.

The people have to answer to themselves and each other in respect to their individual duty as human beings to be well enough informed to know what their governments are doing and the consequences of those doings, and they must voice their concerns openly that they might either be satisfactorily allayed or properly considered by the community and acted on accordingly. NOT SILENCED

As a species we have a very poor track record in this respect and incomprehensible human suffering is the result of our failure. If it is to change, we must make a concerted (and yes, uncomfortable) never ceasing effort to not only reject the status quo, but to never stop striving to improve on and be more responsible and accountable to and for each other.

LMAO

Wanker. I said I was busy. Got MotoGp distractions to immerse myself in. Sooon

[mashman]

LMAO

Wanker. I said I was busy. Got MotoGp distractions to immerse myself in. Sooon

you were watchin the superbikes then. Decent race.

Pointless dodgin hurdles that you keep throwing in your own path .

[R-Soul]

so good it needed to be repeated.
there are a lot of businesses the could be 'incentivise' to locate elsewhere in NZ to provide much needed jobs. But for some reason some think that forcing another 1 million odd peeps into AKL is an awesome idea.

go figure.

Faaark! At 2600 posts, I am very proud of the debate that I started.

Secondly, I also think tha the government should offer tax incentives for businesses (and hence people) to relocate to smaller villages and towns where economies are dying and places are ghost towns. if people move out of Auckland, house prices drop.

Maybe try and incentivise the building of a development corridor from Auckland to Whanagrei, or Auckland to Tauranga?

[mashman]

Faaark! At 2600 posts, I am very proud of the debate that I started.

Secondly, I also think tha the government should offer tax incentives for businesses (and hence people) to relocate to smaller villages and towns where economies are dying and places are ghost towns. if people move out of Auckland, house prices drop.

Maybe try and incentivise the building of a development corridor from Auckland to Whanagrei, or Auckland to Tauranga?

Why move your business if all of your business is in the city? Coz that's have to be some serious incentive.

[Ocean1]

'Bout fknig time... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...e-investigated

[flyingcrocodile46]

'Bout fknig time... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...e-investigated

Yup! I was involved with Rikki Merchants 20+ years ago and they had already suffered a tariff increase due to the opposition (now Fletchers) lodging complaints with the Commerce commission alleging that the Thai Gypsum manufacture was dumping in the NZ market and the result was that Rikki Merchants were selling below the local production cost. The fact that RM were then immediately undersold by our monopoly made a lie of that. Still they wouldn't go away and pencils were sharpened again. Then they went back to the CC with the same complaint and the tariff was increased, and so it continued. I lost count after the third time. I subsequently found out that they were selling NZ gib in the Islands for less than here in NZ (after paying to ship it there). Then there was the market dumping Fletchers carried out in Oz as part of their successful strategy to intimidate CSR into abandoning their product expansion plans for NZ. I hope they get busted into pieces.

[Woodman]

'Bout fknig time... http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/indu...e-investigated

Agreed, what about timber supply to our own domestic market? Theres a fair bit of dodgy stuff happening there too from what I have heard.

[Road kill]

I just wonder where it's going to end.

We've now taken our place in Tokoroa off the market,who might of bought it can now not afford the deposit.

The place up here that we had our eye on,we can now not afford the deposit on.

So we take our place off market and another place for young starters and their families is taken out of the loop.

Why does our gov't hate people so much ?

Fuck me they used to be people themselves.