Pike River

[Zedder]

I've been an honest working man for the last 35 years and i never had an issue with the cops ever.
Not sure where your comin from to be fair.

Yeah, I think there's certain criteria needed before the cops get involved, being lawful doesn't really get them going.

The oppression thing must be something they do when things are really really quiet 'cos the rest of the time I think they're off trying to save lives and keeping honest hardworking citizens safe.

[Bald Eagle]

No -
You just need to look at this image ...

...and read the caption "Defense line" but at least that shows which side you are on.

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[Tazz]

This post was started as a way of remembering our men at Pike River, ( and others ) who have lost their lives in a dangerous occupation.

Not as a tool for abusing the opinions of others.

I had an ancestor who survived the mustard gas in the trenches, only to sucumb to an English mining related death, in the 20's. hence, the video clip.

I think the point has been missed again =(

Bodies recovered or not, R.I.P.

[oldrider]

Well actually I do read shit loads of history and from the reading I do I think that there is often blame in these cases on both sides AND its largely pointless basing todays actions on incidents that happened too long ago. Things actually do change... For instance - you have an old Triumph? Well while BSA was stuffed in 1973 there was a real chance Triumph could have staggered on as the order books were full and they had just launched the T140, negotiated 300 needed redundancies and were on track to make a profit. They would not have needed the whole sorry NVT deal until the shop stewards decided otherwise and suddenly they were stuffed. Please don't bang on about the co-op as it was only ever a hand to mouth stop gap thing without Hopwood and Hele's new designs....

As for never leaving our people behind? Yeah right... Sometimes theres not enough bits of 'your people' left in one place to pick up and carry out. Its a great battle cry to stiffen the spine and instill pride that very often does not work out quite so well in practise. Like all battle cries it is of course a tool to trick the working man into doing something risky for pride (ie the boss won't need to pay you) and I'm deeply suspicious of them. War cemetaries are full of people (or bits of them) that were left behind or blown in front...

I was actually involved in and still strongly believe in trade unions except like all organisations they tend to get taken over by 'organisers' who end up being exactly the sorts of pricks they are encouraging you to fight against. I ended up in no mans land all by myself once to often to take it seriously...

Yes - miners understood that there was a golden hour after the first explosion to risk a quick re entry and the Police didn't. There was the very real possibility that there was a large underground fire still burning and that it wouls have been a suicide mission. The Police cannot allow that to happen.

There has been a lot of discussion on this issue of late. Lots of interviews with those left behind. OF COURSE they would rather have those men out... Just like my nan would have loved her boy back from france... Yes - its simple to think some giant corporate should have paid the 'compo' but there is doubt that the money was there. Its never actually that simple...

Its a mine and there is nothing simple about a hole in the ground... Unless its an open cast mine of course but....

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster!

[Zedder]

I think the point has been missed again =(

Bodies recovered or not, R.I.P.

True, but after being a member since 2008 and over 1,100 posts he probably knew which way this was going to go.

[Zedder]

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster!

Ya might have to change your name to oldtroller, the gubbermint makes the rules.

[Woodman]

Stupid fucking greenies should think about that ... I blame them for that disaster!

The criteria for mining there were put in place before they started. If it wasn't safe to so they shouldn't have started mining in a proven very volatile seam.

Anyway

RIP guys, wherever that may be.

[Oscar]

The police are the armed internal enforcement agency of the state .. but fuck all in today's society would see or accept that.

You just need to look at this image ...

I saw that from very close up, and it was as you say, at the time, an enforcement agency of the state (Muldoon actually).

However it was 32 fucking years ago.
The major problem with the Police today is incompetent investigations, not protestor bashing.

[awa355]

True, but after being a member since 2008 and over 1,100 posts he probably knew which way this was going to go.

I did

[Banditbandit]

...and read the caption "Defense line" but at least that shows which side you are on.

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True that - I carried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.

[Blackbird]

Whilst I was never a fan of Muldoon because of his excesses and not that I'm making excuses, the events of those days has to be seen in context. I was heavily involved with the industrial skirmishes of those days and as Paul in NZ alluded, many union leaders and prominent activists were not fairly representing the best interests of the people they purported to support. Indeed, some of them had political agendas influenced from outside NZ and the level of intimidation of their own members and others had to be seen to be believed. Unfortunately, extreme measures by one group is inevitably met in kind by the other group. As I said, I'm not condoning what happened in those days but sometimes, democracy has to be preserved by undemocratic methods. There's no simplistic answer.

[BoristheBiter]

True that - I carfried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.

And so you should.
You were trying to stop, and by force, a perfectly legal game of rugby due to you feeling of an oppressive racist regime.

And so long my it be that way.

I'm so sick of fuckwits that think they have the right to stop people going about their legal business and cry when they are forced to move.

From what I can recall there were more protesters bashed by rugby fans.

[Paul in NZ]

True that - I carfried bruises from Red Squad battons in 1981 ... and been part of the ONLY incident during the tour protest where a complain was upheld adnd police were deemed to have gone too far in their actions ...

Yes, "Defense Line" carries it's own political ideology and subjectivity ... having Red Squad charge at you waving battons certainly adds a whole new meaning to "defense" ...

The police were used by Muldoon to enforce his will - that the tour proceed - a completely overt and obvious example of the police as the armed internal enforcement arm of the state.

You should read a bit of history. This is good... despite the very valid criticisim mentioned here

http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post...tory-of-lapses

Yes there are errors BUT its very (very) interesting to read a historians version of things you have actually experienced in your lifetime.

Muldoon was actually appalled that the NZRFU went ahead with the tour and tried behind the scenes to stop it for no other reason than he realised what a shitfight it would turn into. However once it started he had to uphold the law and order line but frankly his heart wasnt in it at all... Essentially Muldoon was not a monster but a very clever and able politician with some strong points of view and sadly a serious drinking problem.... hmm - scratch that - yeah he was a bit of a monster all right... But I can't think of another PM that had the Mongrel Mob perform a Haka at his or her funeral... He definately had a bit of pure class about him...

[Banditbandit]

Of course I agree with all that - I was engaged in civil disobedience .. and as disobedience it provokes reactions from the state - actioned by the state's armed enforcement wing ... I knew that when I started ..

I had massive arguments with protest organisers who refused to recongise the consequences of disobedience ... dumb fuckers .. hearts in the rightr place but still dumb fuckers ..

And yeah - the police only hit people with lumps of wood - pro-tour rugby supporters were much worse ...

Now that the thread has been completely hijacked ... let's get back to not forgetting the workers who died in the mines so the millionaires could make even more money ...

[Bald Eagle]

Well having been on the receiving end of the civil disobedience, plywood shields used as weapins we'll agree to disagree on the "rights"of the "peaceful" protestors not to get their just deserts then.

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