Godzone falling in the international education ratings

[MSTRS:Me]

The discussion at hand is the failing to maintain NZ's place in world rankings for education.
The measure of success or otherwise is exam results, n'est pas?
The old system of 'one size fits all' (SC and UE for example) was what that cartoon was getting at, right? Deemed to be a failure by NZ educationalists and changed to NCEA.
So now we have a system where each pupil's learning is tailored to the individual. Near as damn it, they are taught the same curriculum but at a pace/level that suits each pupil.
Except the world says it's not working. Either. Even if it is. Maybe. No-one can agree on that.

[mashman]

You know when your teacher told you that you should try harder?

He was right, your lack of comprehension demonstrates that you didn't listen to him either.

They didn't ask me to try harder.

Of course I listened to him. He was worth listening to.

[mansell]

I sort of agree with most of that. And I've no doubt that most of the hoops you have to negotiate either aren't doing what they were designed to do or are otherwise based on faulty premises. Indeed the whole industry has been a policy football for a long time, which doesn't confer a great deal of confidence in the resulting guidelines and controls.

Also... if a common denominator amongst a group of failing professionals is the qualifications that enabled them to gain entry to that profession then the qualifications themselves are suspect. There's a problem that keeps behavioural anthropologists awake at nights. They find surgeons, for example ignoring evidence that certain procedures are sub-optimal because their contemporaries continually reinforce the concept that it's a good idea. Police ignore best practice investigatory methods because their professional culture doesn't agree with them.

I have no idea what dodgy dogma pervades academia, no idea at all. But to say a profession as a group knows best simply isn't very astute, particularly when what independent data there is demonstrated that perhaps that's not the case. Every profession can benefit from external expertise, especially one so distant from it's market.

I don't see too much blaming of teachers going on, in spite of the general bleating going on about the lack of results. And I can't find too much evidence that parents now are too much different in what they want for their kids from previous generations. What is different is the lack of any advantage higher education and professional qualifications give. In short, what's the point of working that hard? Really?

When you've fixed that you'll see success return to education, and, as a result; to the economy.

Some good points there, but as I see it the majority of people who place any emphasis on these results, which incidently are a one off test aimed at about 5% of our students, think that the sector and therefore the teachers are at fault. The problem I see with external expertise is all the experts I have dealt with since entering teaching have very little idea of the complexity faced when dealing with over 100 individuals a day. Personally I would like to see this data ignored and let us consolidate the multitude of changes brought about by experts (that have never been in a classroom) followed by an attitudinal shift by politicians to stop using the students futures as a political football and actually spend some of my hard earned tax dollars to ensure we once again have a world class education system, not a rip off of the failing american one. Hopefully one day this society will begin to show real respect for people who succeed in their academic fields and then maybe we will not have the problems we face daily when trying to inspire the future citizens of this country.
As for the lack of higher education not being advantageous I don't believe this, it opens doors and allows people to make a greater range of choices.

[SVboy]

I think there is a bit of a misguided veiw here, we have to deal with all this shit and jump through hoops to demonstrate this, it's part and parcel of the package we deal with. The problem is not the professionalism of the teaching staff it's the lack of value placed on education in society. All you people out there who think they can do a better job - here's a challenge for you, go to university for three years (minimum) get and undergraduate degree, do a year at teachers' college (again a minimum) do two years supervised teaching to become fully registered and show us you can do a better job. Otheriwse my advice to you is do your part - don't allow your 13 year old kids to go out each weekend and blow their still developing brains on a mixture of whatever drugs they take, don't place the blame for their behaviour on us and most of all support the fact that in today's society you need to be educated (or lucky) to get anywhere

I find this quite astute. Certainly some stratas of society value education and often model for their offspring the "rewards" good qualifications could possibly bring.

[mansell]

I find this quite astute. Certainly some stratas of society value education and often model for their offspring the "rewards" good qualifications could possibly bring.

In General the students from these backgrounds tend to be the ones that are easier to teach as they have learnt a respect for their education. Strangely enough there is also a good number of students from what can be described as a disadvantaged background who also share these beliefs.

[SVboy]

In General the students from these backgrounds tend to be the ones that are easier to teach as they have learnt a respect for their education. Strangely enough there is also a good number of students from what can be described as a disadvantaged background who also share these beliefs.

Yes to your first point. Sadly, in my experience, not so much to the second one. What I have experienced is that [self]motivated students from less affluent backgrounds tend to do very well, both at [secondary] school and beyond. They tend to have a very real perception of the world and how they can survive and prosper. Usually a key factor in this is that education is valued in the family home.

[mansell]

Yes to your first point. Sadly, in my experience, not so much to the second one. What I have experienced is that [self]motivated students from less affluent backgrounds tend to do very well, both at [secondary] school and beyond. They tend to have a very real perception of the world and how they can survive and prosper. Usually a key factor in this is that education is valued in the family home.

I think that your last sentence is the answer to it all, my wife and I are both teachers and were both raised in working class homes but our parents valued education and supported us throughout our schooling. Maybe one day everyone will get that support rather than the "all teachers are shit an what do you need to go to school for" crap we get everyday, then I think we'll climb in the PISA rankings

[PrincessBandit]

All I know is kids out of school are not being taught to the same level we were and teachers are the front line so you get the blame.

Holy crap batman! I see a weird correlation between that and ACC: Motorcyclists = Easy Target



It's always easiest to take the path of least resistance - yeah, let's blame the teachers. I would love to see any one of you non-teachers who have been drawn to the feeding frenzy survive two periods in a secondary school classroom. (Can only comment on high school teaching, and specifically low decile - in case that is of any import to you - as that's my educational sector).

I was sitting outside one of the DP's offices the other day waiting to get some paperwork signed off and saw a student from one of my year 9 music classes. I asked her why she was hanging around the Deans' offices and she said she'd been kicked out of class again. When I showed surprise she laughed and replied "oh, it's because I don't talk back to you, Miss". When you face classes of 30+ students who you are supposed to be able to offer differentiated learning pathways for with the variety of personalities (not to mention the broadest possible spectrum of levels of intrinsic motivation from completely self-motivated through to 'fuck you I only want to do what I want from your subject') it is challenging to say the least. I teach music so my students are, theoretically, all in front of me because they want to be. (Music is no longer a core subject, even at year 9). Having said that, I still have a high proportion who have been dumped in my classes due to either timetable clashes for that student and there's nowhere else to put them, or they chose music only to discover that it's actually not all playing guitars every lesson and therefore immediately zone out.
Those of us in the teaching profession who do have a passion for our students and subjects have it far harder than the ones who are there simply to collect their pay each fortnight. The burn out rate is very high in teaching - ya gotta be able to stand the heat to remain in the kitchen...(or, sadly, no longer care because you can't afford to any more. It's not always an option to simply leave even if your heart's no longer in the job).

[Banditbandit]

Yes.

We tend to call people with a dysfunctional view of education idiots.

I'm terribly sorry, but the education ssytem has clearly failed you and you are now taking it out on teachers. This is demonsterated by your complete lack of understanding of the "functionalist" approach to education.

When you've fixed that you'll see success return to education, and, as a result; to the economy.

See ... right here ... functionalist approach to education.

In the meantime: Bollox, the only profession that doesn’t have to deal with the stresses and performance requirements of achieving regular targets throughout their professional lives is yours.

That's complete bollox - primary and secondary schools are subject to regular ERO visits

To maintain Teacher Registration a teacher has to achieve regular targets - if someone doesn't maintain registration then they don't keep their jobs ..

In tertiary we get to achieve our targets with TEC or we loose our funding ... and we have annual each performance reviews ...

You do not know what you are talking about ..

You’re failing, and you don’t even admit that your primary task is in fact to increase knowledge let alone look to see if you’re actually achieving that.

That's such a broad sweeping statement - give me the basis on which you tell me that I am failing as a teacher ...

I fail to see why I should waste my time engaging with someone who clearly has no idea what they are talking about - as demonstrated by your posts.

[mashman]

Some good points there, but as I see it the majority of people who place any emphasis on these results, which incidently are a one off test aimed at about 5% of our students, think that the sector and therefore the teachers are at fault. The problem I see with external expertise is all the experts I have dealt with since entering teaching have very little idea of the complexity faced when dealing with over 100 individuals a day. Personally I would like to see this data ignored and let us consolidate the multitude of changes brought about by experts (that have never been in a classroom) followed by an attitudinal shift by politicians to stop using the students futures as a political football and actually spend some of my hard earned tax dollars to ensure we once again have a world class education system, not a rip off of the failing american one. Hopefully one day this society will begin to show real respect for people who succeed in their academic fields and then maybe we will not have the problems we face daily when trying to inspire the future citizens of this country.
As for the lack of higher education not being advantageous I don't believe this, it opens doors and allows people to make a greater range of choices.

I find this quite astute. Certainly some stratas of society value education and often model for their offspring the "rewards" good qualifications could possibly bring.

Holy crap batman! I see a weird correlation between that and ACC: Motorcyclists = Easy Target



It's always easiest to take the path of least resistance - yeah, let's blame the teachers. I would love to see any one of you non-teachers who have been drawn to the feeding frenzy survive two periods in a secondary school classroom. (Can only comment on high school teaching, and specifically low decile - in case that is of any import to you - as that's my educational sector).

I was sitting outside one of the DP's offices the other day waiting to get some paperwork signed off and saw a student from one of my year 9 music classes. I asked her why she was hanging around the Deans' offices and she said she'd been kicked out of class again. When I showed surprise she laughed and replied "oh, it's because I don't talk back to you, Miss". When you face classes of 30+ students who you are supposed to be able to offer differentiated learning pathways for with the variety of personalities (not to mention the broadest possible spectrum of levels of intrinsic motivation from completely self-motivated through to 'fuck you I only want to do what I want from your subject') it is challenging to say the least. I teach music so my students are, theoretically, all in front of me because they want to be. (Music is no longer a core subject, even at year 9). Having said that, I still have a high proportion who have been dumped in my classes due to either timetable clashes for that student and there's nowhere else to put them, or they chose music only to discover that it's actually not all playing guitars every lesson and therefore immediately zone out.
Those of us in the teaching profession who do have a passion for our students and subjects have it far harder than the ones who are there simply to collect their pay each fortnight. The burn out rate is very high in teaching - ya gotta be able to stand the heat to remain in the kitchen...(or, sadly, no longer care because you can't afford to any more. It's not always an option to simply leave even if your heart's no longer in the job).

What would be the single most effective tool you could add to your classroom today? Mini bar? a non-lethal weapons selection? Another teacher? A mute button? technology?

[mansell]

What would be the single most effective tool you could add to your classroom today? Mini bar? a non-lethal weapons selection? Another teacher? A mute button? technology?

Resourcing to enable us to cope with the changes. The reality is teaching is such a multi-variable profession that there is no single tool that will fix everything despite what our government (and a large proportion of society) seem to think.

[SVboy]

What would be the single most effective tool you could add to your classroom today? Mini bar? a non-lethal weapons selection? Another teacher? A mute button? technology?

A compulsary licence with qualifications and strict criteria that prospective parents must meet and achieve before being allowed to have children!
Failing that-usually higher teacher to student ratios help.

[mashman]

Resourcing to enable us to cope with the changes. The reality is teaching is such a multi-variable profession that there is no single tool that will fix everything despite what our government (and a large proportion of society) seem to think.

A compulsary licence with qualifications and strict criteria that prospective parents must meet and achieve before being allowed to have children!
Failing that-usually higher teacher to student ratios help.

Have you ever asked them, as a group, if they like school? and maybe what they'd do to change it, or indeed would prefer to do?

[Zedder]

A compulsary licence with qualifications and strict criteria that prospective parents must meet and achieve before being allowed to have children!
Failing that-usually higher teacher to student ratios help.

Probably the best post in this thread. The compulsory licence for parents might sort out crime as well.

[Banditbandit]

All humans have the same ability's, some might be better than others but still then same.