Old multi-cylinder bikes of the 50s to later on. Japanese, British, Euro, etc

[WilDun]

The poms had the money, look at how much bikes they sold in the 50's 60's..
They just wouldn't invest in their factories with modern tooling and so forth, They had the designers.. they had the materials...
Their labour wasn't dearer than the Japanese.
It was just bloody minded tightness and being short sighted. Well thats my opinion.

Wrong Husaberg,
The Poms did not have the money in the fifties, Britain was more or less bankruped after the war, in fact, they had to pay America back for the "lend lease" equipment and because they didn't have the cash, they had to hand over their leading edge Jet Engine and computer technology to the US to help the payback.
Meantime, the money was promptly invested in Japan and Germany, in the form of brand new factories with state of the art machinery and state of the art education in production management and marketing techniques - that's the reason the Poms didnt invest any money into bikes. - who won the war? - the Japs won the bike war!

Will.

[husaberg]

Wrong Husaberg,
The Poms did not have the money in the fifties, Britain was more or less bankruped after the war, in fact, they had to pay America back for the "lend lease" equipment and because they didn't have the cash, they had to hand over their leading edge Jet Engine and computer technology to the US to help the payback.
Meantime, the money was promptly invested in Japan and Germany, in the form of brand new factories with state of the art machinery and state of the art education in production management and marketing techniques - that's the reason the Poms didnt invest any money into bikes. - who won the war? - the Japs won the bike war!

Will.

To a point i agree, but simply stated BSA who would have done pretty well out of the war, remember what BSA stands for .
Also BSA was not the British Government.
Japan and Germany also had their Debt wiped (i think) although Amal got a nice surprise with all the royalties that Mikuni had banked for them for the carbs made under license during the war was presented to them at the conclusion of the war.
I am sorry but i think the poms f-ed them selves by not thinking ahead.........

[F5 Dave]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

[husaberg]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

I think DR Joe erlich or whatever it was got one of the engines pretty early in the piece.
Kaaden reckoned Honda had a hand in the defection, as Degner not finishing allowed Honda to win the championship(thought you would like that)

[WilDun]

See if they'd been smart they would have pushed into East Germany first and spirited away Kaaden and had a head start on some real engine technology instead of persevering with hopelessly flawed 1/2 time engines. The Bantam didn't really cut it.

How can you say that? - the Bantam was a fantastic machine! I had the fastest one around and it could travel at around 80 mph (consertive estimate of course ), acceleration was compromised by the 3 speed box, yes three speed gearbox!
A neighbour of mine bought one brand new and he said it took him only 20 mins to get to town on it! (town was a little over four miles away).

Of course, I do understand that things may have moved on slightly from those days.

I'm sure Walter Kaaden also knew the defection was going to happen and I bet he didn't go empty handed from Suzuki either and who could blame him?
He knew the Soviets would only cramp his style and make him produce poxy things like the Trabant engine instead of giving him money to develop something great from his hard work.

Yes, the Poms' money woes were also of their own making with their " ok. you chaps, here it is - hope you like it! - these damn foreigners and their silly little motorcycles" attitude.

Joe Erlich didn't appear to fulfil his early potential, but he could have been like Dr Gordon Blair from Queens University in Belfast, who kept a relatively low profile even though he was doing a lot of Yamaha's development work.

Dont knock the Bantam!! (half time engine! - ).

[F5 Dave]

Well the Bantam wasn't a 1/2 time engine, I was inferring 4 strokes. The Bantam was war reparations lifted from DKW (& inversed). They just could have done better, ahh heck it made them bread & butter sure.

Kaaden needed funds for contraband parts like forks etc, that's the Dr Joe connection. He was apparently offered to go over to Suzuki but was loyal. Answering to the GRD Stasi wouldn't have been in anyone's plans intentionally. Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country).

[WilDun]

Well the Bantam wasn't a 1/2 time engine, I was inferring 4 strokes. The Bantam was war reparations lifted from DKW (& inversed). They just could have done better, ahh heck it made them bread & butter sure.

Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country).

Thats amazing, and I did hear that Suzuki used other people's ideas without payment or acknowlegment, eg. the early RM rear suspension (after the guy submitted his idea to them for evaluation).
Did Degner leave with Kaaden's blessing or was he just a theiving sod? - Obviously he was privvy to all the plans and notes.
Sounds that there was sculduggery going on all round!

(Ah yeah, half time engine, - understand now, - rusty on all the modern jargon ).
Always been a two stroke fan, right from the time I first saw the MZ and Bultaco racing and they had got to the dizzy heights of 200 BHP/litre.

Will.

[husaberg]

Thats amazing, and I did hear that Suzuki used other people's ideas without payment or acknowlegment, eg. the early RM rear suspension (after the guy submitted his idea to them for evaluation).
Did Degner leave with Kaaden's blessing or was he just a theiving sod? - Obviously he was privvy to all the plans and notes.
Sounds that there was sculduggery going on all round!

(Ah yeah, half time engine, - understand now, - rusty on all the modern jargon ).
Always been a two stroke fan, right from the time I first saw the MZ and Bultaco racing and they had got to the dizzy heights of 200 BHP/litre.

Will.

My understanding is Kaaden had no love at all for Degner (after he left anyway)
I will post the interview with him or at least link it.

Father of the modern 2 stroke

Alfred Scott is maybe the grandfather.

kick on the arrow after Husaberg, click on the attachment a few times to supersize them.

[F5 Dave]

Did you realise Skulduggery is derived from a Scottish word implying fornication? Well that's trivia for today.


There have been a wealth of MZ stories published, but the most recent & probably complete is Mat Oxley's Stealing Speed. Its also a damn fine read, I'd suggest it to anyone, have a look online bookstore for a copy. Kaaden felt very betrayed.


I've also read the Japanese Motorcycle wars. I would not recommend this to anyone except as a reference book. It will suck your will to stay awake.

[GerbilGronk]

Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post

"Suzuki never acknowledged his input. But somewhat later Yamaha did (as there is always a bleed of technology with people in same country)."

Suzuki ended up paying for the Full Floater suspension after a court case found in favour of the inventor Donald Richardson. Then I think they changed the setup so they wouldn't have to keep paying.

[WilDun]

My understanding is Kaaden had no love at all for Degner (after he left anyway)
I will post the interview with him or at least link it.



kick on the arrow after Husaberg, click on the attachment a few times to supersize them.

Getting back to the Scott motorcycles, I have a book somewhere which describes the inlet valves used on these machines. ( maybe they were experimental, I dunno).
From memory, rather than rotary valves they had inlet valves which were driven by the main conrod through a secondary rod to a lever which produced an oscillating motion of the drum of a cylindrical valve.
It's a bit hard to describe, but I'll try to find out, ( a picture is worth a thousand words!

Will.

[WilDun]

Quote Originally Posted by F5 Dave View Post


Suzuki ended up paying for the Full Floater suspension after a court case found in favour of the inventor Donald Richardson. Then I think they changed the setup so they wouldn't have to keep paying.

Glad to hear that there is some justice.

[Bender]

Mat Oxley's Stealing Speed. Its also a damn fine read, I'd suggest it to anyone, have a look online bookstore for a copy. Kaaden felt very betrayed.
.

Agree, a very interesting read. Anyone with access to Auckland's libraries will find they have a copy of the book.

[Yow Ling]

Seeing as you brought up Scotts bikes, that is where I stole Yow Ling from

The Yowling two stroke ,Scotts flying squirrels etc

[WilDun]

Seeing as you brought up Scotts bikes, that is where I stole Yow Ling from

The Yowling two stroke ,Scotts flying squirrels etc

You just never know how some of these names come about! and there was me trying hard not to make any disparaging remarks about Chinese bikes in case it might offend yow - sorry, 'you'!

I haven't found the details about the inlet valves as yet, but I know they're here somewhere.

Will.