The cheater MX85 argument. I might be changing my mind.

[Sketchy_Racer]

As I have previously stated there is no point to letting in 85MX if they are going to be limited in any way other than capacity.
Buckets is about developing engines to race. A ported 85 2 stroke against a worked 150 4 stroke is a good match.
The other engine classes can remain unchanged. the best 100cc home built non comp 2 strokes will still produce 30hp, the best air cooled non comp 125 2 strokes will still come close (23hp isn't close) but blow up every second meeting, the best 4 strokes will still dominate the kart tracks with their superior torque curves. I'd like to see non comp 200cc single cylinder 2 valve air cooled 4 strokes added as well.
I will put this forward as a rule change next year. Support buckets or support your own agenda I don't care

I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route if people can get past the "competion" engine part.

And like I mentioned earlier, if there is a clear advantage from one type of motor then put in place some form of restriction.

[TZ350]

As I have previously stated there is no point to letting in 85MX if they are going to be limited in any way other than capacity. Buckets is about developing engines to race. A ported 85 2 stroke against a worked 150 4 stroke is a good match.
The other engine classes can remain unchanged. the best 100cc home built non comp 2 strokes will still produce 30hp, the best air cooled non comp 125 2 strokes will still come close (23hp isn't close) but blow up every second meeting, the best 4 strokes will still dominate the kart tracks with their superior torque curves. I'd like to see non comp 200cc single cylinder 2 valve air cooled 4 strokes added as well.
I will put this forward as a rule change next year. Support buckets or support your own agenda, I don't care.

I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route.

I voted No but there has been some good discussions and unrestricted (except for capacity) MX85's are starting to sound like a good idea to me too.

[husaberg]

I agree 100 percent with this. Long term this is the logical route if people can get past the "competion" engine part.

And like I mentioned earlier, if there is a clear advantage from one type of motor then put in place some form of restriction.

I voted No but there has been some good discussions and unrestricted (except for capacity) MX85's are starting to sound like a good idea to me too.

Right even if we set aside the the gearbox issues....................
We still have the position where ther MX85 would be able to use cheaper and superior more freely available bearings and rods than a Open F4 or F5 either 2 or 4 stroke can.....

Don't get me wrong Change is ok (and enevitable) but before sweeping changes are made ramifications have to be noted, considered and accomidated.

[Drew]

Right even if we set aside the the gearbox issues....................
We still have the position where ther MX85 would be able to use cheaper and superior more freely available bearings and rods than a Open F4 or F5 either 2 or 4 stroke can.....

Don't get me wrong Change is ok (and enevitable) but before sweeping changes are made ramifications have to be noted, considered and accomidated.

That's exactly why it's a good idea, one would have thought.

[husaberg]

That's exactly why it's a good idea, one would have thought.

Read it again Drew..................

[Drew]

Read it again Drew..................

I'm missing something here I think. I read what you have said, to be a negative aspect. You seem to refer to it as a ramification, after setting aside the gearbox...which you repeatedly say you are against.

I'd have thought readily available parts at much lower price to what is being paid now, is possibly the single greatest item in the 'for' column.

[husaberg]

I'm missing something here I think. I read what you have said, to be a negative aspect. You seem to refer to it as a ramification, after setting aside the gearbox...which you repeatedly say you are against.

I'd have thought readily available parts at much lower price to what is being paid now, is possibly the single greatest item in the 'for' column.

But only for the 85's Drew...... only for the 85's............
you like to think if it was a great thing, which it could be (the opening up of parts that are cheaper and better quality to boot ie competition conrods and bearings) it should be a great thing for all.............But no, the other F4 and F5's 2 and 4 strokes. For them (Competition conrods and bearings)they would be still be illegal......

[chrisc]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

[CM2005]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

AS has been repeated ad infinitum however some people are jammed in a gear themselves

[Drew]

But only for the 85's Drew...... only for the 85's............
you like to think if it was a great thing, which it could be (the opening up of parts that are cheaper and better quality to boot ie competition conrods and bearings) it should be a great thing for all.............But no, the other F4 and F5's 2 and 4 strokes. For them (Competition conrods and bearings)they would be still be illegal......

So? There are a lot of bikes out there that are getting impossible to source parts for. They sit in sheds and never come out anymore. CB125t is one that springs to mind.

What can be done to make it fairer for them? Allow them to go to 200cc to make up for them being unlucky in owning an outdated motor?

I do understand the argument for not letting these motors in to the sport, but the reasons seem to be easily manageable with the implementation of a few simple rules.

There will of course be cheaters who break those rules, but the sad fact is they're probably out there doing the same thing now anyway.

[husaberg]

Just on the gearbox side of things:
I thought that having a reduced capacity (85 v 125) was a big enough penalty for having a better gearbox?
For the 100cc water cooled vs. 85cc watercooled (with MX box) argument, again there is a capacity disadvantage here for a better gearbox.

For FXRs, they only use 2 gears most of the time anyway and are fine how they are so that's kind of irrelevant (in the real world) in relation to 4 strokes.

Yes of course you could say that, but you have to balance it in with the fact the MX bike was designed from a blank slate to be a competition bike and thus has many other advantages deigned into it, that nearly all the commuter bikes don't, Water cooling, case reed some even have valve power valves, nice clutches designed for their HP, race ignitions built in already. They contain far fewer composmises.
the reduced capacity is 85 vs 100 remember (water cooled.)

Makes a good point what if it was air cooled MX like an early cr or rm80 would them be allowed to go to say 100 or even 125 ????????????

[husaberg]

So? There are a lot of bikes out there that are getting impossible to source parts for. They sit in sheds and never come out anymore. CB125t is one that springs to mind.

What can be done to make it fairer for them? Allow them to go to 200cc to make up for them being unlucky in owning an outdated motor?

I do understand the argument for not letting these motors in to the sport, but the reasons seem to be easily manageable with the implementation of a few simple rules.

There will of course be cheaters who break those rules, but the sad fact is they're probably out there doing the same thing now anyway.

But the rules should to be sorted prior to entry, not after wouldn't ya think...........

[Drew]

Makes a good point what if it was air cooled MX like an early cr or rm80 would them be allowed to go to say 100 or even 125 ????????????

Consensus looks to be pretty firm on a capacity limit of 85cc for competition motors. Someone silly enough to buy a different type of old shitter that can't compete at all, deserves what they get.

[Drew]

But the rules should to be sorted prior to entry, not after wouldn't ya think...........

Without doubt. I think Sketchy's one is completely stock, other than the pipe...which I bet the lazy bastard just used something that had been hanging in the shed already.

So for him to have taken it to the track, and be saying he'd like to persue the avenue now, makes sense.

It's been kinda tried, it could work, the fraternaty should now consider a set of rules and submit them to MNZ. Let the voting be official regarding a firm submission.

Meh, I only ever build a bike every two years and bring it to the track once anyway. Doesn't effect me either way.

[chrisc]

Someone please run the numbers on realistic potential for a 150cc 4 valve 4t engine vs a 85cc 2t mx engine.
I feel that they are a pretty damn good match, especially considering the apparent ease of racing a 150 4t (lots of area under the power curve) vs. the higher effort required in racing a 85cc 2t.

I would do it myself but I lack the experience required for such calcs