The Ukraine

[SPman]

One thing I know for sure from my own observations and from my friends in Ukraine: The majoring of Ukrainians just wish they could get on with their lives, they want Ukraine to stay Ukraine. In Eastern Ukraine oblasts which are the most affected, most people want nothing to do with the seperatists - they just want to live in a city which isn't being ripped apart

True. Having been there recently, it must be deeply disturbing to you. I know a couple of yukies, they haven't been home for some years, but they aren't happy at all about the whole situation. Unfortunately, unless there's a massive groundswell amongst the general populace, it's not going to happen - the whole revolution has been hijacked by groups with agendas - as they always seem to be. What the people want, unless it can be used to advantage, rarely figures in what most of the protagonists are going to do.

It needs people to step back, stop fighting and start talking - on both sides. Both sides are attracting mercenaries/adventurers/fighters/whatever - there have been reports of Danes and Americans in the Ukraine attacking forces.......

Poroshenko may be better than those before and it's ironic he knows Putin well, and supported Yanukovych for a while....... but, most of the oligarchs know each other and it seems to be the way that part of the world operates at the moment.

Trouble is, unless some cool heads come into play, it's just going to steadily escalate.....May 2nd - Odessa - 297 dead, May 9 - Mariupol - over 100 civilians and police killed, Slavyansk - over 100 dead the last 2 weeks, Lubyansk - over 50 killed in aircraft attacks yesterday.......lots of civilians - civilian admin office workers.
It's not to late to stop this slaughter, but, with every day it continues, positions become entrenched, people become embittered and it becomes harder and harder, and meanwhile the stirring continues from outside the country.........

......I don't want an argument.

Nor I - this whole subject is tragic - a discussion from differing viewpoints is quite acceptable.

[SPman]

The situation in Novorossiya for civilians in many areas is critical. In the areas under heavy and continuous bombardment food is scarce. Water in Slavyansk area is stopped some days ago. Electric also. The other important part of water supply, the removal of sewage, well, the Ukes shot those plants to pieces also. The situation in Kramtorsk is even worse, so bad that there are civilian bodies in the streets, many bodies, that have not been picked up for days. I am not joking. I tell the truth. I shudder to think how many dead civilian men, women and children we will find when we eventually secure the area but I will not be surprised to find the numbers exceed a thousand if not far more.

To the best of my knowledge the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees has refused to bestow refugee status on the civilians leaving the combat and bombardment areas of Novorossiya. To quote a famous quote, why should they care?

It's estimated 1-200,000 people have fled the cities so far, the Ukrainians are shelling city residential areas using white phosphorus on occasions, shooting wounded patients in hospitals, yet, the western news media only comments, if the Donbass troops shoot down a plane with 49 military personel on it and blame the "russian backed terrorists!"
A major catastrophe brewing here.....
but they're "only" Russian/Ukraine non people......

Fucking pathetic!

[Brian d marge]

Ahh the western media

Ill let Russel speak .......



Remove empathy add money and you get this shyt ( ukraine etc not the above you tube)

evil fuckers


Stephen

[mark247]

I think it's fair to say the Ukrainian, Western, and Russian media only tell their side of the story.

Fighting in residential area is awful. In some cases though I think civilian areas have intentionally been used as a form a defence.

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[avgas]

Crimea is ok. But many companies are shifting operations out of Sevastopol simply due to connotations more than anything. But it seems everything is as peaceful in Crimea as it is now effectively Russian supporters only. The rest have gone north and some Ukrainians have even gone south.

[mark247]

It's important not to make things should so black and white saying things like Crimea is "effectively Russian supporters only." What about the Ukrainians and native Tatar? There is nowhere in Ukraine which is "only" anything.

I think it's important to remember Ukrainians in Crimea. Ukrainian speaking high schools have been made to change and Crimean Universities with many students from main land Ukraine are in worse shape. It's made out as if Crimea never fitted in Ukraine. That's rubbish. From my experience in my short time in Crimea and having studied the area in depth there was very little issue with it being Ukrainian before the Russian media striked fear in to the Russian speaking population making them think Ukraine had been taken over by fascists. It really wasn't an issue before. My Ukrainian and Russian colleagues and friends never mentioned it as an issue before.

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[mark247]

FYI



Edit: obviously a survey of Crimean residents, not all of Ukraine

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[awa355]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11277657

The Ukraine people wont want their country to finish up like this.

[SPman]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11277657

The Ukraine people wont want their country to finish up like this.

June 19th IRAQ SITREP

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.com.au...indfriedo.html

[R650R]

Look at the current mess that is called Iraq, . The Americans pulled out claiming all was on the mend. They had their man in place.

Iraq is going completely to the USA plan, they wanted this all along. Their (pentagon) dream is to balkanise Iraq into five small indepandant states, none of which on their own would become a Saddam size headache if their installed puppet dictators (sorry elected govts) disobey the IMF/Elite plan again.
I'd also say they probably engineered this looking at the timing as a launching pad to overwhelm Syrias forces. You have to wonder where all those weapons and fighters are going to end up afterwards though. Looks like they've created afganistan mk2...
Ukraine has been another deliberate destabilisation plan by the West but Putin is a smart cookie. He's letting them create their shambles knowing the outer regions will come back to the security of Russian control.

[mashman]

Murdering scum

[george formby]

Murdering scum

There were unconfirmed reports, by netizens, of heavy casualties in the Ukraine posted yesterday.

[mark247]

There was never a ceasefire from the separatists. 27 Ukrainian servicemen killed in the last 7 days.

You do realise RT is propaganda in its purist form right? Just don't trust one news source, or any. It boggles my mind hearing people with no ties or real understanding of the region backing the separatists (I'm not pointing at anyone in particular here, for all I know you're originally from eastern ukraine).

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[mashman]

There was never a ceasefire from the separatists. 27 Ukrainian servicemen killed in the last 7 days.

You do realise RT is propaganda in its purist form right? Just don't trust one news source, or any. It boggles my mind hearing people with no ties or real understanding of the region backing the separatists (I'm not pointing at anyone in particular here, for all I know you're originally from eastern ukraine).

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I keep up in general... it doesn't matter where you hear the news from, even if it's from a local. Why would anyone need an understanding or ties to the region to understand what's behind war? This debacle started off as a fracking protest. It's a somewhat global activity. That the murderous scum have legalised the murder again (it was illegal under a ceasefire right) is scant consolation to anyone anywhere near what's going on. Cunts are supposed to be leaders, the best and the brightest, and yet they do not serve their people. They should be shot.

[mark247]

I think you'd find the vast majority of Ukrainians want Ukraine to stay intact. Be them from Lugansk or Lviv. War is an awful thing by all means, but Russia and/or the separatists are not the moral authority in this case. If separatists, which are a small minority, started this in any other country I think the government would have a similar response. Remember Chechnya? First Chechen war had around 80k civilian casualties.

The sad thing about this conflict is the huge propaganda involved. Pro Russians think Ukraine is run by the far right nazis, where you'd find that far rights in Ukraine has one of the smallest showings in Europe. The word 'fascist' is being thrown around like its going out of fashion, if anyway cared to look at the meaning they'd see that Russia of all the major players involved is the closed to it.

These (some?) separatists are madmen, yesterday there were reports they had a go at knocking a Dnipravia airliner out of the sky with a MANPAD. Stuff them! I've flown that airline!

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