A safety framework for discussing motorcycle safety

[Berries]

No surprises, folk on here have the answers. But find it easier to snipe on a forum than to actually get involved and do something. Like the OP did.

Riiiiight. So the OP asks a question and nobody is allowed to answer? Odd way to run a forum.

[James Deuce]

I am however completely against mandatory on-going training, experience makes better riders. non-mandentory training I'm OK with training but I see no reason it should be forced onto all within a given license class. Nor do I think it will achieve anything. People need to be personally motivated to seek training not forced.

Experience is just practising the same old mistakes over and over. I think, especially given your attitude, Class 6 licenses should involve a license resit every 5 years, following a compulsory 2 week review programme, taken at motorcyclist's own expense and in their own time. Might make having a class 6 meaningful.

[Brian d marge]

Yes and now in their friggin wisdom, the gubbermint have approved 50 tonne trucks for the roads (an extra axle), The bloody highways here are NOT designed for the current trucks allowed in many places... Rimutaka's for example... So now these new 50 tonner's are going to be on that hill, on your side of the road, to negotiate the tight corners...

FFS we have a rail freight network that is profitable and capable of being utilised far more than it is....
So lets allow bigger, road destroying trucks instead.....

and while I'm at it... the Wainui hill?? the 'roundabout' they installed at the Bell rd/Grace st Junction. Fantastic road design,,,, a huge metal drain?? whatever cover that is almost the full width of the single carriageway as you exit from Gracefield into Bell.

Need to keep the americans happy by using the petro dollar

I completely agree with you about the trains

Stephen

[Urano]

car drivers that hit bikes because they did not see them

it is physically possible that they don't see us even despite their attention. (so figure out how they can see us when they're actually not paying attention...)

and in any case remember that the "i didn't see him" data you find in statistics is always the easiest read of the problem, not necessarily the true one...

much more probably they see but make mistake while interpreting what they've seen, its speed and direction. this is not a problem of attention, is a problem of average expectation and lack of preparation, and you can't solve it with a fee...

[Berries]

it is physically possible that they don't see us even despite their attention. (so figure out how they can see us when they're actually not paying attention...)

and in any case remember that the "i didn't see him" data you find in statistics is always the easiest read of the problem, not necessarily the true one...

much more probably they see but make mistake while interpreting what they've seen, its speed and direction. this is not a problem of attention, is a problem of average expectation and lack of preparation, and you can't solve it with a fee...

Or with training as per the OP. You can train other road users all you want but they will still fail to see a motorbike approaching with the right of way no matter how much hi-viz the rider is wearing or how bright his daytime running lights are. They don’t see trains for fucks sake. Teach riders to expect that it is going to happen and it won’t matter if it does. I’d suggest that at least 90% of crashes involving motorbikes were avoidable by the rider, including a large proportion of those where the car driver was deemed to be at fault.

[BlackSheepLogic]

I think, especially given your attitude, Class 6 licenses should involve a license resit every 5 years, following a compulsory 2 week review programme, taken at motorcyclist's own expense and in their own time.

Yep, punish 'em all for one persons mis-deeds, works for me as long as I'm excluded....

Our views on training and the benefit of mandatory training are different, thats all.

[willytheekid]

Riiiiight. So the OP asks a question and nobody is allowed to answer? Odd way to run a forum.

...you seem to forget who he works for mate.



ps...its kinda how his boss & Co want to run the whole country...dont ya love the attitude tho

[MrKiwi]

It's just Akzle being Akzle.

Yes, so I gathered. I did ask for the good, the bad and the ugly, so I shouldn't be surprised. My bad.

[MrKiwi]

Riiiiight. So the OP asks a question and nobody is allowed to answer? Odd way to run a forum.

I invited comments, all comments. Please keep them coming, it is helpful. Some of the views expressed might not be sensible, but they give me a flavour of the variety and intensity of feelings.

[MrKiwi]

Or with training as per the OP. You can train other road users all you want but they will still fail to see a motorbike approaching with the right of way no matter how much hi-viz the rider is wearing or how bright his daytime running lights are. They don’t see trains for fucks sake. Teach riders to expect that it is going to happen and it won’t matter if it does. I’d suggest that at least 90% of crashes involving motorbikes were avoidable by the rider, including a large proportion of those where the car driver was deemed to be at fault.

90%, that an interesting view. Made me pause and think for a bit. I'm not sure it is as high as 90% but I agree with the idea that a lot of the time, no the vast majority of the time, we can be in control of what happens. It grates that we might need to give way or make room for other road users when we have the right of way etc, but I'd rather be alive grating my teeth and letting a few choice words escape than be dead or seriously injured.

Are you suggesting that training other road users is a waste of time, or is your view that yes train other road users to watch, look be aware etc, but let's not fool ourselves that this is a panacea for correcting current wrongs.

[MrKiwi]

...you seem to forget who he works for mate.



ps...its kinda how his boss & Co want to run the whole country...dont ya love the attitude tho

Out of curiosity, who do you think I work for?

[george formby]

90%, that an interesting view. Made me pause and think for a bit. I'm not sure it is as high as 90% but I agree with the idea that a lot of the time, no the vast majority of the time, we can be in control of what happens. It grates that we might need to give way or make room for other road users when we have the right of way etc, but I'd rather be alive grating my teeth and letting a few choice words escape than be dead or seriously injured.

Are you suggesting that training other road users is a waste of time, or is your view that yes train other road users to watch, look be aware etc, but let's not fool ourselves that this is a panacea for correcting current wrongs.

I have spent a lot of time tinking about road safety the last couple of years as my G/F is now riding. We have had the benefit of good mentoring, lots of practice & training through pro rider. An absolute bargain at the mo.
Apart from skill development and knowledge/road craft, the most apparent change is in her attitude to being on the road. After decades driving, typically obliviously, she is now habitually active in assessing what is happening around her and making the appropriate decisions to be in the safest possible position. She freely admits this mind set is like night & day compared to how she used to perceive her place on the road.

There is no panacea for absolutely preventing accidents, large lumps of metal at high speed in narrow confines does not allow it.
An ongoing change of perception amongst road users seems the best way to lessen the toll. Every rider or driver who learns to look and think defensively is an asset to help minimise the consequences of those who don't. Increasing the percentage of road users through education, even if it starts at school, who act to prevent accidents will lessen the toll or at least be one less vehicle in an accident.
Well, that's kinda how I see it. "Safe" roads & heavy fines do not change attitudes or abilities.

[willytheekid]

Out of curiosity, who do you think I work for?

SANTA!

[MrKiwi]

I have spent a lot of time tinking about road safety the last couple of years as my G/F is now riding. We have had the benefit of good mentoring, lots of practice & training through pro rider. An absolute bargain at the mo.
Apart from skill development and knowledge/road craft, the most apparent change is in her attitude to being on the road. After decades driving, typically obliviously, she is now habitually active in assessing what is happening around her and making the appropriate decisions to be in the safest possible position. She freely admits this mind set is like night & day compared to how she used to perceive her place on the road.

There is no panacea for absolutely preventing accidents, large lumps of metal at high speed in narrow confines does not allow it.
An ongoing change of perception amongst road users seems the best way to lessen the toll. Every rider or driver who learns to look and think defensively is an asset to help minimise the consequences of those who don't. Increasing the percentage of road users through education, even if it starts at school, who act to prevent accidents will lessen the toll or at least be one less vehicle in an accident.
Well, that's kinda how I see it. "Safe" roads & heavy fines do not change attitudes or abilities.

Thanks, good points.

[MrKiwi]

SANTA!

lol, I asked for that one...