What say you - review of motorcycle licences

[george formby]

Some bikes can be safer than others even if they don't have electronics to try and make them safe. Eg some bikes handle better than others in traffic and have better brakes even without ABS.

How much of them is touching the road? That's the limit. A bit of black rubber.

[Gremlin]

Eg some bikes handle better than others in traffic and have better brakes even without ABS.

uh?

ABS, in most situations, outperforms non ABS, as it's able to maintain maximum braking without locking (which usually leads to loss of control). There are some (ie, in the minority) situations where ABS does make a situation worse, such as gravel or loose surface roads (where locking of a wheel is usually preferable), or perfect conditions, excellent surface, and the rider is doing testing of ABS (ie, planned stopping). Other than that, ABS is better than non-ABS... and proven so by testing.

[swbarnett]

Some bikes can be safer than others even if they don't have electronics to try and make them safe. Eg some bikes handle better than others in traffic and have better brakes even without ABS.

Sure, for the same rider equal the safety level of the bike can be a factor. In practice the rider's skill will be the greater factor. A less "safe" bike ridden by a safe rider is likely to be safer than a "safe" bike ridden by a not so safe rider.

[swbarnett]

ABS is better than non-ABS... and proven so by testing.

I've always wondered how they do the comparison? It's impossible to do rigorous testing in real world situations. Any test will involve a rider that is doing "planned stopping".

In the last course I did there were 3 of us that could outbreak both the car and the ABS bike that were there on the day.

[Swoop]

Tourists account for 1% of the vehicle crashes.

Cool! Do they get given a "1%er" patch at the rental company office?

Enough for a change of legislation ... ???

No. We already have enough "legislation" on the books that can be used. Keep the public-servant bastards away from any more of it.

Or!...they could just stop handing licenses out to any twot that can get around the block & parrelle park!

Most definitely.
There is no automatic entitlement to operate a vehicle on our roads.
Of major concern is now the amount of retards who seem to want to "move into the right hand lane!!" for no reason at all. Gooks are top of this list.

[mossy1200]

I've always wondered how they do the comparison? It's impossible to do rigorous testing in real world situations. Any test will involve a rider that is doing "planned stopping".

In the last course I did there were 3 of us that could outbreak both the car and the ABS bike that were there on the day.

To many variables to compare anything other than the SAME bike and rider running same temp and pressure in tyres with same rider with abs on then off to even get close to a test condition.

Front suspension and tyre could be as big a factor as abs in stopping distance. Im thinking ABS in the wet with a surprise EB would be the biggest results difference.

Even height of the bike and length of wheel base and centre of gravity will effect results.
How long could the list of contributing factors get.

Idd say I could pull my bike up faster than most cars on a good road surface. In the wet riding with abs off not so much. Add some painted road lines(Give way) or manhole covers and most cars are going to do a lot better.

[MrKiwi]

How would you feel if the gubbermint did this.

When you go to renew your licence, you have an eye test, and pays yer money. Your car licence is rolled over, no probs.

But if you want to renew your bike licence, you have to pass a practical assessment. Pass, and you're all good. Fail, you get some ACC subsidized training, and you're good to go.

See, there are 480 thousand people in NZ holding Class 6 full licences, but only 80 thousand bikes registered. What's apparent is that there are a shit load of people with bike licences who haven't ridden in years. Some will never.

These are over represented in crash stats, when they have their mid life crisis and get back onto a bike after not having ridden for decades.

I for one think it should include a driving test for all classes, but how would you feel if it was applied to just Class 6 licences?

Just seeking opinions, which flow freely on here.

Are you suggesting returning bikers are showing up in the accident stats in their droves. Only ACC and a few misinformed Policemen believe that... a thorough examination of the stats won't support that myth.

[swbarnett]

To many variables to compare anything other than the SAME bike and rider running same temp and pressure in tyres with same rider with abs on then off to even get close to a test condition.

Front suspension and tyre could be as big a factor as abs in stopping distance. Im thinking ABS in the wet with a surprise EB would be the biggest results difference.

Even height of the bike and length of wheel base and centre of gravity will effect results.
How long could the list of contributing factors get.

Idd say I could pull my bike up faster than most cars on a good road surface. In the wet riding with abs off not so much. Add some painted road lines(Give way) or manhole covers and most cars are going to do a lot better.

Exactly. Which means that there's no strong evidence to suggest that ABS helps at all. Just a thought experiment that suggests it "might" help.

[caspernz]

Exactly. Which means that there's no strong evidence to suggest that ABS helps at all. Just a thought experiment that suggests it "might" help.

ABS on a bike is a no-brainer, for its value is in the surprise situation, whether this be a panic stop or a sudden surface change. Now that I've got a bike with ABS, regardless of my many years and distance covered on two wheels...wouldn't buy a bike without ABS now.

As for the licence retest idea...only if it's for all classes. Even a compulsory defensive driving course done periodically would help with accident stats I reckon. The Yankee approach of traffic school could have some merit.

As a career trucker, many years hauling fuel, the on-going training certainly helps. Heck, even the annual medical can be a benefit. Any changes to make it unduly difficult to obtain or keep a licence would however be a difficult political hot potato I'd venture.

[rastuscat]

Inexperience is an issue. Age too. Riders new to bikes, regardless of age, don't have the experience that experience brings.

Young and inexperienced is a big issue.

[R650R]

Idd say I could pull my bike up faster than most cars on a good road surface.

Has anyone ever done some real world tests on this??? A modern twin disk sportsbike vs a suitable modern car with good brakes.
A mate of mine had a Subaru B4 as company car when they were new and not a hoodie mobile like they are these days, man that thing could haul up in a short distance.
I think bikes are better braking from high speeds but in normal legal speeds 100k or less I think a good car will stop quicker, way more rubber on road/traction and braking power that overcomes the weight factor.
Just like how a car will actually change direction faster than bike...

Its a pity for what ever reason EBS hasn't made it onto bikes instead of just ABS.
In a truck same model vs another the difference between ABS and EBS is massive. EBS systems actually measure how fast your depressing the brake pedal, takes the brakes to lock up point then backs off a smidgen and whoa!
I reckon EBS with electronic suspension control could be worth several metres on a bike easy.

[MrKiwi]

I would say that ACC and the police would know more than you however I bet the data would not show if the older rider was returning or had never stopped riding.

Actually I do know the data, very well. It has been my job over the years to know it and I still have access to it for analysis.

The Ministry of Transport have been investigating this for sometime. I myself, when I led the work to develop the current road safety strategy in 2008/09 thought this was a real issue as ACC kept banging on about it. Turns out this is not quite the problem many think it is.

What is true is that the majority of fatalities involve men (much more than woman) in the age range of 30-55. Many factors are at play.

[MrKiwi]

Has anyone ever done some real world tests on this??? A modern twin disk sportsbike vs a suitable modern car with good brakes.
A mate of mine had a Subaru B4 as company car when they were new and not a hoodie mobile like they are these days, man that thing could haul up in a short distance.
I think bikes are better braking from high speeds but in normal legal speeds 100k or less I think a good car will stop quicker, way more rubber on road/traction and braking power that overcomes the weight factor.
Just like how a car will actually change direction faster than bike...

Its a pity for what ever reason EBS hasn't made it onto bikes instead of just ABS.
In a truck same model vs another the difference between ABS and EBS is massive. EBS systems actually measure how fast your depressing the brake pedal, takes the brakes to lock up point then backs off a smidgen and whoa!
I reckon EBS with electronic suspension control could be worth several metres on a bike easy.

There has been some work done on this, and my understanding of it is cars fitted with ABS can stop in almost all conditions more quickly than a bike, even bikes with ABS. However, it can be misleading as bikes are lighter than cars (yeah go figure) and with powerful twin disk brakes the issue becomes how to control the bike under heavy breaking. ABS helps. Bikes also stop quicker when fitted with ABS.

[MrKiwi]

Inexperience is an issue. Age too. Riders new to bikes, regardless of age, don't have the experience that experience brings.

Young and inexperienced is a big issue.

Yes.

I had a discussion with the Insurance Council beginning of last year. Insurance companies will tell you that one of the most vulnerable times for accidents is in the first few days/weeks of new vehicle ownership. This changed my view of driving/riding quite a lot. I recently bought a new bike and instead of doing my normal 'lets ride it to test it' thing I've done in the past, this time I did four rides to learn about the bike. I rode the bike in the dry, in the wet, on different road surfaces and in the wind (lots of that here). Now I'm beginning to understand the bike I can begin to ride it a bit harder from time to time.

[BlackSheepLogic]

What is true is that the majority of fatalities involve men (much more than woman) in the age range of 30-55. Many factors are at play.

Was that conclusion adjusted for KM traveled? (was there a difference?)