What say you - review of motorcycle licences

[swbarnett]

If mentally prepared etc, it's not a true road test.

Which is, of course, my point. There's no way to imperically test ABS.

ABS may help in an emergency situation on a slick surface. My experience without ABS is that more than once I've felt the front tyre repeatedly slip and regrip under heavy real-world emergency braking (some in the wet). Could ABS have done better? I don't think anyone can say for sure either way. There is simply no way to do rigorous scientific testing.

I've ridden a lot in all weathers since 1982 and I've only once come to grief in an emergency stop^* so I feel quite safe without ABS.



^*ABS wouldn't have helped because I was leaning heavily at the time. A noobie mistake of braking at exactly the wrong time.

[MrKiwi]

So they recreated the exact emergency situation after removing the ABS from the broken bike?

You do not need to create the exact emergency situation to understand trends, and it is trends we are after. It is always trends in the results we are after.

The research looks at several factors. None of this is unusual, it is how all road safety research works. The more research articles done looking at the problem from different angles combined with similar findings the more we can rely on those findings to generally be correct.

The research I've read analyses:

• markets where models with and without ABS fitted are analysed over time comparing accident rates of bikes with ABS to those without. No one accident is compared to any one, but if you find a wide range of riders on bikes with ABS are having less accidents over time, or the severity of injuries is less over time, compared to the bikes not fitted with ABS then you can start to document trends in road safety between bikes with and without ABS. Research using this methodology are finding undeniable trends due to fitment of ABS. And at the end of the day this is exactly the type of research you would want in order to validate the difference, ie is ABS better across a range of bikes, roads and users compared to bikes without ABS. It's the extent to which ABS can add benefits.
• you can also analyse long term trends in accident rates in markets looking at the rate of ABS penetration and compare these to drops in rates of number and severity of accidents pre and post ABS being introduced into the market. Generally you need longer term trends and also need to ensure drops in rates are not attributable to other safety initiatives.

In my view ABS on road bikes ridden on tarmac is a no brainer. However, for adventure bikes, as noted by many in this thread, ABS on gravel is a mixed blessing. I'd definitely want to turn off ABS when riding on gravel, although at times I choose to leave it on. The most critical function for me is being able to turn off traction control, I want to be able to spin up my back wheel. It's traction control that affects this. I'd also want to have ABS turned off on my back wheel to lock it up when needed.

[MrKiwi]

Which is, of course, my point. There's no way to imperically test ABS.

ABS may help in an emergency situation on a slick surface. My experience without ABS is that more than once I've felt the front tyre repeatedly slip and regrip under heavy real-world emergency braking (some in the wet). Could ABS have done better? I don't think anyone can say for sure either way. There is simply no way to do rigorous scientific testing.

I've ridden a lot in all weathers since 1982 and I've only once come to grief in an emergency stop^* so I feel quite safe without ABS.



^*ABS wouldn't have helped because I was leaning heavily at the time. A noobie mistake of braking at exactly the wrong time.

Not so. And if you feel quite safe without ABS continue your merry way. However, there is plenty of perfectly valid research that says you'd be better off with it.

[willytheekid]

You people USE brakes?



...Am I helping?

[MrKiwi]

You people USE brakes?


...Am I helping?

lol, not if I can help it, but I do need to use them, well then that's a different story...

[swbarnett]

http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/...ckBraking.aspx

http://www.superstreetbike.com/featu...oesnt-need-abs

I had a read of the MythBusters article. They say the myth was busted but the numbers say otherwise. The stopping distances were lower or slightly over (as close as would make no real difference to an attentive rider). And the one "crash" doesn't change things. Whose to say that this wouldn't have happened with ABS as well if more runs were done.

[swbarnett]

You do not need to create the exact emergency situation to understand trends, and it is trends we are after. It is always trends in the results we are after.

The research looks at several factors. None of this is unusual, it is how all road safety research works. The more research articles done looking at the problem from different angles combined with similar findings the more we can rely on those findings to generally be correct.

The research I've read analyses:
...

This smacks of the Hi-Vis debate. i.e. "Correlation does not mean causation". In a market where ABS is optional it is quite possible that those that choose to buy a bike with ABS are safer riders anyway. Thus completely skewing the findings and making all the studies base on accident data inherently flawed.

As I said. There is no way to emperically test ABS. As far as I know all the studies are based on statistical data and as such cannot state an outcome to a large degree of certainty as the causality is not proven.

This is a problem with all statistically based human research. It, by definition, cannot adhere to the basic principle of only changing one variable at a time. Only with a time-machine could this be done. Maybe if we discover a parallel universe where the only difference is ABS we will finally know for sure.


When I was at school we were given the story of the man that hung a leg of pork in his garden and observed it from inside his house over a period of a number of weeks. At the end of that time the meat was gone and only flies were left. He concluded that, left alone long enough, meat will metamorphosise into flies. The moral of this story is that observation of a system does not always yeild a true picture of the processes behind that system.


Just to be clear I'm not against ABS. I just don't want to not have the choice. It's like back and chest protectors. They are just beyond what I'm prepared to do to keep myself safe.

[nzspokes]

Just to be clear I'm not against ABS. I just don't want to not have the choice. It's like back and chest protectors. They are just beyond what I'm prepared to do to keep myself safe.

ABS reacts the same every time. It doesn't have a bad day. It doesn't ride tired. It doesn't ride pissed. Its not pissed off with the missus. It doesn't get low on sugar. Its doesn't get sun strike. It doesn't ride dehydrated.

It does the same thing every time. You dont. Simple as that.

[Rhys]

I have never owned a bike with abs but my under standing is that it only starts to "work" after the brakes lock? so if you are one of the expert riders who can stop faster without abs you should be able to stop an abs equipped bike just as quickly because you're not locking the wheels ?

[swbarnett]

ABS reacts the same every time. It doesn't have a bad day. It doesn't ride tired. It doesn't ride pissed. Its not pissed off with the missus. It doesn't get low on sugar. Its doesn't get sun strike. It doesn't ride dehydrated.

It does the same thing every time. You dont. Simple as that.

Agreed. So you'd be in favour of a fully automated motorcycle then? If you're willing to let the bike do the braking for you then why not the cornering?

As you say, computerised bikes wouldn't have off days.

[swbarnett]

I have never owned a bike with abs but my under standing is that it only starts to "work" after the brakes lock? so if you are one of the expert riders who can stop faster without abs you should be able to stop an abs equipped bike just as quickly because you're not locking the wheels ?

The trick is to get the braking just on the point where the tyre starts to lock and no further. When my wife and I were taught to ride this was one of the drills that was drummed into us over and over again.

[nzspokes]

Agreed. So you'd be in favour of a fully automated motorcycle then? If you're willing to let the bike do the braking for you then why not the cornering?

As you say, computerised bikes wouldn't have off days.

You count with your fingers at work then? Dont use computers at all.

[MrKiwi]

I have never owned a bike with abs but my under standing is that it only starts to "work" after the brakes lock? so if you are one of the expert riders who can stop faster without abs you should be able to stop an abs equipped bike just as quickly because you're not locking the wheels ?

Exactly, ABS cuts in as the front wheel begins to slide, effectively preventing it sliding. Every test done on ABS in cars or with motorcycles shows improved stopping capability in both the dry and wet.

If you are riding appropriately, within good riding practices 99% of the time ABS will not cut in.

I now own a bike with ABS. On the one occasion I needed it (so far), it worked a treat.

[MrKiwi]

Agreed. So you'd be in favour of a fully automated motorcycle then? If you're willing to let the bike do the braking for you then why not the cornering?

As you say, computerised bikes wouldn't have off days.

My view is your response suggests to me that you do not understand how ABS works? ABS does not do the braking for you. It never does the braking for you. All it does is it prevents the wheel from locking up and therefore prevents skidding.

[swbarnett]

You count with your fingers at work then? Dont use computers at all.

Yeah, good point.

Computers are my job. Theres an adage that I was taught long ago that applies mostly to application development - "Never let the user do something that the computer can do". Since then I've agonised long and hard as to exacly how far this should go. Take it to it's extreme and you end up doing nothing because computers are doing it all.

The point I was trying to make was that if you let a computer do your braking because it doesn't fuck up then why not let it corner for you for the same reason. I agree that this is non-sensical. However, it does go to show that you've made the decision to go at least as far as letting ABS do your braking (at least the hairiest parts). Up until now I've chosen to stop before ABS as I don't think it's necessary (I'm still open to being convinced otherwise when I inevitably get a bike with it).