Learning from accidents

[unstuck]

Feel free to add assumptions of your own ...

All coppers are bastards.

[eldog]

Assumptions are the Mother of all fuck-ups ... my favorite three.

Assumption 1. The road you are riding has not changed since you last rode it ...

Assumption 2. All other road users WILL be operating their vehicle in accordance with ALL Traffic Legislation. Even if YOU are not.

Assumption 3. If you cannot see any other traffic on the road ... there wont be.


Murphys Law can (and will) apply at any time .. usually at the worst possible time.


Feel free to add assumptions of your own ...

Assumption 4. The same road conditions that exist at the start of a corner, exist midway and at the end of corner. - Scan as far ahead as possible.

[samgab]

...Like ice, black ice, diesel, tar bleed can sneak up on you, especially on dark country roads.

Don't assume the road surface is the same all the way around a corner....

I had an experience with black ice, which again taught me a valuable lesson in my younger motorcycling days. I was a pillion on a BMW R1100RT, travelling from Palmerston North to Auckland one winter evening. On the desert road, we hit a patch of black ice mid-bend, and both front and rear wheels simultaneously started sliding to the outside of the corner, and the embankment. Fortunately, the rider was skilled enough to keep the bike shiny side up and there was no off. But it was much colder than expected, so we stopped in Taupo that night and continued on the next day.

So I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

[unstuck]

I had an experience with black ice, which again taught me a valuable lesson in my younger motorcycling days. I was a pillion on a BMW R1100RT, travelling from Palmerston North to Auckland one winter evening. On the desert road, we hit a patch of black ice mid-bend, and both front and rear wheels simultaneously started sliding to the outside of the corner, and the embankment. Fortunately, the rider was skilled enough to keep the bike shiny side up and there was no off. But it was much colder than expected, so we stopped in Taupo that night and continued on the next day.

So I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

Living down here you learn to factor in black ice very quickly, or you get schooled hard.
Agree with the off road riding comment too.

[awayatc]

All coppers are bastards.

Assumptions where asked for.....

assumptions...

not facts....

[unstuck]

Assumptions where asked for.....

assumptions...

not facts....

I have had the pleasure of dealing with some who were real good bastards, and could have made my life a lot harder than I would have liked.
So I will stand by my earlier statement.
If you go into a situation assuming someone is going to be an asshole, then you are rarely disappointed.

[eldog]

I guess you just have to always be prepared for something like that. Be aware of, and ride to the conditions, including weather and temperature.

I think off-road riding experience in water and mud and slippery surfaces gives a bit of knowledge of how to handle a slide. You get a feel for how the bike is likely to react, and where you should position yourself and point the handlebars to stay upright.

Another thing I learned was the value of high quality, "sticky" tyres. When I bought my VTR250 it had old hard tyres, and the bike felt insecure, twitchy, and unsteady under braking and cornering. Then, I bought a new pair of good quality tyres for it, and it completely changed the nature of the bike. After running the tyres in properly, the bike felt much more stable and planted under braking and going through corners. Huge improvement.

I think if I had had some off road riding experience it would have helped.ie training in a safe environment.
I now scan much more than I did, and much further ahead.
Tyres and tyre pressures extremely important.
knowing what to do instinctively would have been great too.
my tar bleed patch was approx. 2m wide x 12+ m long 1/2 way round a corner
enough time for the rear to slide around about a 1metre, tank slapper then a high side.
its been fixed now.

so having my accident, taught me a lot about those things.
If I had been scanning would have avoided them all, but I didn't know about wet tar bleed till then.

and yes I found that most people thought I was "look at me" when I talked about it, esp other 'good' bikers
when I was really thinking I had been doing all the right stuff and I till got caught out.
They turned their back on me.
its not till now that I realise that to them thats what it seemed-skyting (my dad and another rider pointed it out)

I wear ATGATT-boring but it protected me and now I am back on a bike

I want other people to know what to look for and what they can do to be prepared.

[swbarnett]

I would say it would be the size of the patch of ice that saved the bike rather than rider skills

Yes and no. The larger the patch the more skill is required to stay upright until grip returns. And also the skill to prevent a high-side.

[bluninja]

So by your thinking then guys who ride on icy frozen lakes need spiked tyres because they are not skilled to stay upright otherwise? I have come off on ice myself and things can happen as quick as a fast running dog. You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck. If however it was a case of hitting a patch of gravel having off road experience/skill would assist.

So traffic lights, ice, a dog and a head on...is that all your accidents now? So just like the car, the dog, and the traffic lights, the ice came at you so fast you had no time to brake?

As for skill versus luck on ice....watch this vid of a bike actually racing on ice with no spikes....warm up starts at 2:15 race at 4:30

[swbarnett]

So by your thinking then guys who ride on icy frozen lakes need spiked tyres because they are not skilled to stay upright otherwise?

Way to read between the lines and get it completely wrong. Ice riding and sliding over a patch of black ice are two totally different things.

Besides, the ice riders don't "need" spikes per se. They just make the job a lot easier. Riding on ice without them (which can be done) they would tire very quickly.

I have come off on ice myself and things can happen as quick as a fast running dog. You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck.

I came off on ice on my bicycle (in Europe in mid winter on a forestry road i.e. ice all over the road). I had been riding along successfully (and by no means slowly) for quite some time until I got distracted and over-balanced. Lesson learned. Once I got back on I continued riding, still on ice, and made it home without further incident. All on standard MTB tyres - no spikes!

[eldog]

Yes and no. The larger the patch the more skill is required to stay upright until grip returns. And also the skill to prevent a high-side.

a high side was something I hadn't expected, specially after the tankslapper had been getting less, I thought it would die away which it was doing.....

I think my brain shut off the memory of the initial part of the highside (Blank), it was so fast.
Michelin PR3, in case someone was wondering.

I plan to do some training to be able to avoid these situations and if necessary what actions to take when they happen - (instinctively)

I only have minimum experience off road/gravel 30 k, which I have done after my little effort.
This has helped me RELAX a lot more, on the road, even my car driving has improved.

Ice/gravel riding - everyone should do some

[swbarnett]

As for skill versus luck on ice....watch this vid of a bike actually racing on ice with no spikes....

I stand corrected. Seems it's not that hard after all - at least for those with the skills.

[swbarnett]

a high side was something I hadn't expected,

There's probably a better way but the one and only time I've come close to high-siding I prevented it by turning my outer leg and the bike into a tripod (and the same on the other side after the rebound). No damage done except that my knees were saw for a week afterwards.

And for the cassina's sake I didn't think about what I was doing at all - it was all instinctual.

[Kickaha]

You are getting the word skill mixed up with luck.

It is quite common to mistake skill for luck

[samgab]

I stand corrected. Seems it's not that hard after all - at least for those with the skills.

The tricky part is when a road surface / grip level changes quickly, as it can - and frequently does - do on our public roads.

If you have certain level of grip on good tarmac, and you're riding well within that grip level, and then the tyres encounter a patch with vastly reduced traction: paint, metal, ice, gravel, oil, water... that's where it's really easy to come unstuck; and where one has to be really alert to detect those changes by observing the road surface all the time while riding (situational awareness).

Riding along on a constantly slippery surface - gravel road, fully iced road, mud track - isn't quite so bad because you've got a constant expected level of grip and you get used to it. Speedway dirt track motorcycle racing is another good example of this. The whole race is virtually one big powerslide on a very low traction surface but if it went tarmac, ice, dirt, tarmac, dry, wet, gravel; it would be much harder.

Here's a great example I saw a little while ago. It's the Dakar Rally, and there's a water splash. Almost all of the motorcycle riders fall off in the same place. They're all skilled riders, they know what they're doing, they've all completed hundreds of Kms without falling off, but they all, one after another, fall off in this same spot. Yes, because it's slippery, but even more so because the grip level changes so quickly at that point that it catches almost all of these expert riders out: