Yet another ATGATT thread

[eldog]

Another little Safety Nazi crawls out of the Internet

The riders gear complied with the legal requirements.

You can not expect or demand more than that.

Personally I prefer to ride with more gear than that - but that's MY choice.

Funny how people who wear more gear than what is compulsory/regulated try and defend others who dont.

I seem to remember that wearing of helmets is EXPECTED AND DEMANDED

If the ACC cost was spread evenly across all road users (all same cost per vehicle) THEN you would see the demand by non-mbike users for mbikes for more safety gear, This would be regulated and imposed on riders.

OK I dont expect most people to IMPOSE their ideas on others, but think about it, this is the thin edge of a wedge BEFORE regulation occurs.

Just at present the gubbermint/ACC/Other road users have snuck out from under the cost of mbike injuries by keeping up the rego ACC costs only on the group affected. A user pays system that puts the costs directly at registered road bikes. Apart from death, ACC costs for mbike injuries are high compared to other users. If we can mitigate some costs then this ACC $ could be reduced.

I guess its a carrot before the stick approach.

I have had an accident I know how my gear saved me from lots of skin damage.
Most think it cant happen to me, YEAH RIGHT

[Kickaha]

Once you have seen the results of a real crash your opinion will change. And as the I have to pay for the rehabilitation costs of people not wearing the correct gear through my ACC payments I reserve the right to force my opinion down other throats.

Can you please provide the information about how many people crash and need you to pay for their rehabilitation while not wearing the "correct gear"

[James Deuce]

They can be one in the same. Ride across Death Valley in full race leathers and see how long you last before passing out from heat stroke. Some of us don't react well to heat (even Auckland summers can be a problem).

Actually you'd better be covered up when riding across Death Valley. Had more than one friend ride around that part of the world and those with skin exposed do not cope well and end up in heat stroke hell far quicker than those properly dressed. It's why desert dwellers cover themselves up completely..

[James Deuce]

Funny how people who wear more gear than what is compulsory/regulated try and defend others who dont.

I seem to remember that wearing of helmets is EXPECTED AND DEMANDED

If the ACC cost was spread evenly across all road users (all same cost per vehicle) THEN you would see the demand by non-mbike users for mbikes for more safety gear, This would be regulated and imposed on riders.

OK I dont expect most people to IMPOSE their ideas on others, but think about it, this is the thin edge of a wedge BEFORE regulation occurs.

Just at present the gubbermint/ACC/Other road users have snuck out from under the cost of mbike injuries by keeping up the rego ACC costs only on the group affected. A user pays system that puts the costs directly at registered road bikes. Apart from death, ACC costs for mbike injuries are high compared to other users. If we can mitigate some costs then this ACC $ could be reduced.

I guess its a carrot before the stick approach.

I have had an accident I know how my gear saved me from lots of skin damage.
Most think it cant happen to me, YEAH RIGHT

I don't think you understand how ACC works. Or why singling motorcyclists out required two changes to the Act in the decade prior to singling motorcyclists out. Horse riders cost more in rehab per accident than motorcyclists.

I also don't think you understand that there is no way to predict the potential outcome of a motorcycle accident in terms of injury sustained. Your gear can only, at best, mitigate some injuries. In worst case scenarios you can be picking bits of armour out of your skin 5 years after an accident. I got a good chunk out last month.

[eldog]

I don't think you understand how ACC works. Or why singling motorcyclists out required two changes to the Act in the decade prior to singling motorcyclists out. Horse riders cost more in rehab per accident than motorcyclists.

I also don't think you understand that there is no way to predict the potential outcome of a motorcycle accident in terms of injury sustained. Your gear can only, at best, mitigate some injuries. In worse case scenarios you can be picking bits of armour out of your skin 5 years after an accident. I got a good chunk out last month.

I dont know the ins and outs of ACC I will admit that, no worries.
But do horse riders pay ACC? do off road riders pay ACC? do Track riders pay ACC?
maybe they do, but I am not challenging the ACC system, just how people dont try and protect themselves 'in case'.

I was only thinking of us Road Registered Mbike users

I like the ACC system it acts as a backup to cover everyone no matter what. In principal it sounds great.

Yes I know there is no way of predicting an accident outcome, any accident.

Imagine what you would be like if you worn NO armour.
Yes there are circumstances where armour has caused greater injury than if it wasnt present (you might be a case in point)

[James Deuce]

I dont know the ins and outs of ACC I will admit that, no worries.
But do horse riders pay ACC? do off road riders pay ACC? do Track riders pay ACC?
maybe they do, but I am not challenging the ACC system, just how people dont try and protect themselves 'in case'.

I was only thinking of us Road Registered Mbike users

I like the ACC system it acts as a backup to cover everyone no matter what. In principal it sounds great.

Yes I know there is no way of predicting an accident outcome, any accident.

Imagine what you would be like if you worn NO armour.
Yes there are circumstances where armour has caused greater injury than if it wasnt present (you might be a case in point)

Yes, everyone pays ACC through a variety of channels including the earner's account. It's not an insurance scheme and it was never meant to be. It's not a backup to anything, it is the primary source of funding for accident related injuries. It was devised to avoid litigation preventing timely rehab and treatment and to avoid things like the Insurance companies making funerals prohibitively expensive. It's mainly there to get you back into paid employment in the best possible way.

You've completely missed the point of what I was saying about gear. No guarantees. It means nothing. YOU are a vessel that is designed to deal with speeds of up to 20 km/hr. Hitting something at speeds above that is a lottery as to how badly injured you'll be. You'd do better to focus on mental attitude first and riding skills second than to put a moments thought or trust into gear ever doing anything for you.

[eldog]

You've completely missed the point of what I was saying about gear. No guarantees. It means nothing. YOU are a vessel that is designed to deal with speeds of up to 20 km/hr. Hitting something at speeds above that is a lottery as to how badly injured you'll be. You'd do better to focus on mental attitude first and riding skills second than to put a moments thought or trust into gear ever doing anything for you.

I dont think I missed the point, i might be simple.

This a thread just about wearing of good gear?

I understand about what gear can do, I am mainly thinking about protecting skin damage which like burns can be painful and long lasting, let alone visual scarring.

I do focus on my mental attitude, I know I am not bulletproof. I try and focus on my riding but because I can multitask I often struggle to be in the 'zone' (one reason why i ride alone at the moment) as I have been trying to remove other distractions so I can concentrate better.

Riding skills, thats why I have done training, I am a older beginner rider with no previous experience of riding (almost anything). I plan to do more training and honing my limited skills

Gear is only a backup i realise that.

If you followed me on a ride you would see that I try very hard to avoid any possible contact. Ride like a nana.

[swbarnett]

And how do you feel about the information displayed on cigarette packets?

Hate it. And I'm an anti-smoker.

Yes if I lived in India I would give them a lecture too.

Shit you'd be busy. This is a daily occurrence over there.

Life is cheap there, they think differently to most NZders I expect.

Having worked for the past few years with someone raised in Mumbai I can say they don't. They are people just like you and me. Given the same circumstances we would do the same.

Arent these items I have just mentioned IMPOSED on us to make us safe?

Well, that's another story that I won't go into here.

Undoubatly with the H&S act coming in, soon everyone will have to eventually ATGATT and good gear too.

What worries me is that this is if we keep harping on about what others should wear then others will harp on about what we ride. Ending in us being legislated off the road.

[swbarnett]

Rather my mates alive than dead.

If RC had given a lecture to his mates then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the fact that this guy was a complete stranger that is the issue.

[swbarnett]

Funny how people who wear more gear than what is compulsory/regulated try and defend others who dont.

I'm only defending someone's personal freedom. I'm also defending my right to ride in jeans. Even though I still wear "all the rest".

I have had an accident I know how my gear saved me from lots of skin damage.
Most think it cant happen to me, YEAH RIGHT

It's not about thinking it can't happen. It's about knowing the risks, mitigating them as the individual rider sees fit and being happy to live with what's left.

No-one has the right to determine someone else's personal risk level. This is the whole point of ACC - to give us the freedom to engage is "risky" activities (for pleasure or sustenance) knowing full well that if the worst happens we will be looked after.

Allowing individuals to set their own risk level is of great benefit to society as a whole. ACC is a mechanism by which this can be achieved.

[swbarnett]

Actually you'd better be covered up when riding across Death Valley. Had more than one friend ride around that part of the world and those with skin exposed do not cope well and end up in heat stroke hell far quicker than those properly dressed. It's why desert dwellers cover themselves up completely..

Fair point.

I was only talking about heat trapping motorcycle gear. Covering up in thin, light coloured clothing is another matter.

[eldog]

What worries me is that this is if we keep harping on about what others should wear then others will harp on about what we ride. Ending in us being legislated off the road.

Exactly my point, make the info visable - I want more graphic TV ads on road accidents. So people think about their actions. Also about road and vehicle condition.

I am thinking about getting people to make their own decisions.

All this BEFORE we get legislated off the road.

Imposing stuff on people might not be the best way of getting the message across to some people.
But putting an idea out there somehow is a start.

Notice how the general drink driving attitude for most people has reduced lately, still have accidents granted, but a lot more people think about it now.

This discussion is like preaching to the already converted, you and I agree on the same ideas just how to put them out there to the general public we disagree on.

[eldog]

I'm only defending someone's personal freedom. I'm also defending my right to ride in jeans. Even though I still wear "all the rest".

It's not about thinking it can't happen. It's about knowing the risks, mitigating them as the individual rider sees fit and being happy to live with what's left.

No-one has the right to determine someone else's personal risk level. This is the whole point of ACC - to give us the freedom to engage is "risky" activities (for pleasure or sustenance) knowing full well that if the worst happens we will be looked after.

Allowing individuals to set their own risk level is of great benefit to society as a whole. ACC is a mechanism by which this can be achieved.

Agreed. Freedom always comes as a cost - see the Land of the Free.

I wonder then why mbike ACC cost is different to other users?

[scumdog]

If RC had given a lecture to his mates then I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's the fact that this guy was a complete stranger that is the issue.

Why?

Didn't affect you and none of your business...

[swbarnett]

Didn't affect you

I'm not directly affected by this incident, no. But the "safety zealot crusade" that seems all too prevalent today very much affects me.

and none of your business...

If it wasn't boasted about on social media then no. It became my business (and that of everyone else with a computer) when it was posted for comment.


If it stays with a lone crusader poking their nose in then I won't lose any sleep over it. What concerns me is that it's becoming the social norm to poke one's nose in where it doesn't belong. Down that road lies the banning of all that makes life worth living.