Ummm... Maori drivers not issued tickets?

[jasonu]

A while back ... there was a clamp down on unrestrained kids ... would you see this as persecution of parents/caregivers .. ??? ...
.

That is like saying they are persecuting drunk drivers with booze check points or persecuting speeders with speed traps...

[rastuscat]

It's a totally predictable over reaction.

Schemes like this have popped up all over the country. The way this one was managed was appalling. The race focus is the problem.

However, if a particular demographic has a problem and you design a solution to address that problem, isn't that actually a good thing?

It's similar to the cock up in the communication of the zero tolerance over Christmas. Totally awful promotion of a philosophy.

[PrincessBandit]

That's a bullshit way of achieving the goal ...

It doesn't =- but ten they are not completely "let off" they have to do some things otherwise they pay the fine ...

.. stop them when they demonstrate bad driving - don't stop them because of their ethnicity.

It is most definitely bullshit if it's designed to rort numbers and make stats appear "better"; if you're going to do it for some, do it for all; and most definitely don't base thing on race - deal with the actions not the colour. I too have seen plenty of elderly whiteys who scare the crap out of me behind the wheel of their cars - I just hope I don't turn into one of 'em one day!!

[awayatc]

It's similar to the cock up in the communication of the zero tolerance over Christmas. Totally awful promotion of a philosophy.

One philosophy as you call it made everybody a criminal...and was/is a load if crap...
the other one tries to make less people criminals...which is great...

fuck promotion

[TheDemonLord]

It's a totally predictable over reaction.

Schemes like this have popped up all over the country. The way this one was managed was appalling. The race focus is the problem.

However, if a particular demographic has a problem and you design a solution to address that problem, isn't that actually a good thing?

It's similar to the cock up in the communication of the zero tolerance over Christmas. Totally awful promotion of a philosophy.

So what you are saying there (If I understand you correctly)

Is that the NZ Police is run by a bunch of Inept, Incompetent Beaurocrats who continually mislead the general public as a result of their Stupidity?

[FJRider]

That is like saying they are persecuting drunk drivers with booze check points or persecuting speeders with speed traps...

Perhaps ... this is actually closer to the real truth of this thread ... that is not PC to admit.

[TheDemonLord]

Okay, I will debate your points

RDJ

1. If it was race based it would be for the whole of NZ. Instead it is for one specific area. A high risk area, and then within that a high risk population.

So, if in the 1960s in America, Mississippi claimed that their racial segregation policies weren't racist because they didn't apply to the whole country - they would be right?

Whilst it may be a high risk area and a high risk group - it is a high risk group that is demarcated solely based on Race. Since the discriminating factor is Race, the Guideline is Racist. If the policy referred to anyone who say was below the financial poverty line, then that is not racist.

2. This is not an official policy. It is a guideline to Police Officers to consider when using their discretion.

It is however an Official Guideline. Guidelines are used to shape and eventually Drive policy.

3. Iwi organisations appear to be the ones running and funding the scheme in regards to compliance. Do we have non-Maori community organisations which will do something this intensive and for free???

So, a Maori organisation is lobbying the Government for preferential treatment for Maori. We don't have non-Maori organisations doing this because every other Ethnic group knows that you need a licence to drive and not to complain if you get pinged driving without a licence.

4. It is much easier for a Police Officer and Police as an organisation to write ticket and pass it over. It involves more time and administration to go through the hassle of grabbing all details, making referrals to support agencies, checking on compliance and following up in 2 months time, and then writing ticket a if non-compliance.

Just because something is harder, doesn't make it not racist.

Would the extra time and administration be worth it if applied to people were not such a risk? Would the cost to benefit ratio be favourable if such an approach was rolled out nationally, especially to areas where compliance was more likely through just a fine or a warning?

There are 2 key considerations here:

1: what is the point of having a Law if people are allowed to blatantly disregard it
2: Many people (myself included) believe that even so-called 'Positive Racism' (giving an ethnic group special privledges/rights in order to right historical wrongs) is still Racism and still wrong when applied at a governmental level.

5. How well is the current strategy of ticket, courts, fines, working?

Well, Eventually the Unlicenced driver won't be able to afford to drive and so won't be a hazard on the road.

6. How can other measures such as higher risk targeted interventions eg. more patrols, more check points, more stops, targeted at young brown drivers be considered as "equality"? And because of that their likelihood of receiving infringements higher? Opposed to being a smart risk-based approach, which arguably isn't that equal in principle?

So there is a fallacy in your arguement here (and it is a very crucial and overlooked fallacy)

The police don't set out to target as you put it 'Young, Brown Drivers' - they do however target areas that typically have those in the lower socio-economic groups who are more likely to be driving unlicenced/unwarranted/unregistered vehicles.

I agree that a large percentage of those people are likely to be 'Young, Brown drivers' but the police are not targeting them specifically. If suddenly we had a large influx of Green Men, who tended to reside in a particular area and tended to be routinely break the law - you can be guaranteed that the police would start setting up stops in that area, but it is not targeting the Green Men.

[FJRider]

It's a totally predictable over reaction.

Schemes like this have popped up all over the country. The way this one was managed was appalling. The race focus is the problem.

However, if a particular demographic has a problem and you design a solution to address that problem, isn't that actually a good thing?

It's similar to the cock up in the communication of the zero tolerance over Christmas. Totally awful promotion of a philosophy.

Perhaps The Police need Professional public relations and policy staff.

Not just hope senior staff in the various areas get it right ... good ideas are not as simple to implement ... as some have already found.

[RDJ]

I agree that a large percentage of those people are likely to be 'Young, Brown drivers' but the police are not targeting them specifically. If suddenly we had a large influx of Green Men, who tended to reside in a particular area and tended to be routinely break the law - you can be guaranteed that the police would start setting up stops in that area, but it is not targeting the Green Men.

The analogy fails, because in this case there is a "treat the Green men differently from the Orange or Blue men" documented policy. I.e. in this situation, the police have been instructed and had reinforced in writing that they are to let the Green men off more leniently compared to Orange or Blue men.

[TheDemonLord]

The analogy fails, because in this case there is a "treat the Green men differently from the Orange or Blue men" documented policy. I.e. in this situation, the police have been instructed and had reinforced in writing that they are to let the Green men off more leniently compared to Orange or Blue men.

That was a seperate argument about the Profiling and targeted action vs racism argument

[FJRider]

.. stop them when they demonstrate bad driving - don't stop them because of their ethnicity.

I think they get stopped when a check on their plates come up as expired rego with no WOF/speeding ... or attract the attention of plod in some way. The cop can't tell the race of a driver untill they are at the drivers door.

The scheme is targeting unlicensed drivers ... not those forbidden to drive (for any reason) and they CAN expect a ticket. Whatever their race.

Getting more full licensed drivers on the roads (in any area) has to be good for all motorists.

[RDJ]

That was a seperate argument about the Profiling and targeted action vs racism argument

Fair enough. Of course, targeted action on the basis of "what race are you" remains racist.

(How do the Police confirm a Sufficient State of Maoriness? Roadside Pigmentalyzer? Estimated Melanin Index? Being able to spout Treaty grievances?... or one of these... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-...-904336892.htm )

[Tazz]

Racism.......?
never cut anybody yet who is pink and red inside......

Holy shit!

Mate what you do in your spare time is your own business.....

[FJRider]

(How do the Police confirm a Sufficient State of Maoriness? Roadside Pigmentalyzer? Estimated Melanin Index? Being able to spout Treaty grievances?... or one of these... http://www.trademe.co.nz/motors/car-...-904336892.htm )

Ask the Groups that provide assistance to the "Maori" ... that are referred in the scheme. I'm betting they will attempt to help ALL referred. If they don't help a few "whitey's" too ... that would be raciest ... wouldn't it .. ??

[Swoop]

Perhaps The Police need Professional public relations and policy staff.

Perhaps they are being the "Yin" to American police's "Yang"? Letting a black person off is much nicer than just shooting them dead.