Using LAMS approved bikes for full license test?

[Ender EnZed]

Well surely that's where the exhaustive testing comes in, if the rider can demonstrate the required confidence & ability then they move up in license - why does it matter if they had their 6r for 3 months or 12 months?

Plenty of people would be able to pass the full test after 3 months on a 6L, let alone 6R. That doesn't necessarily mean that those same people wouldn't be better off waiting a bit longer before being officially let loose on the fastest thing they can afford.

[JimO]

Common cars are good. Easy to get parts. Being a wagon it hauls the tribe to camping etc well. As long as it can keep up with the flow of traffic Im happy with the power. Can gate the dogs off in the back and it tows the trailer well for track days. Works for us.

i use a new 4x4hilux for that

[nzspokes]

i use a new 4x4hilux for that

Which will depreciate more than the value of the Commodore in the first year.

[JimO]

Which will depreciate more than the value of the Commodore in the first year.

dont care, i get a new one every 3 years

[GrayWolf]

Well surely that's where the exhaustive testing comes in, if the rider can demonstrate the required confidence & ability then they move up in license - why does it matter if they had their 6r for 3 months or 12 months?

so the assumption the system makes is that everyone who gets their 6R head out in all conditions and situations to gain the "experience". at no point did I decry the use of the 660, my statement was regarding the lack of any advancement beyond that for 12months. when I go to do my test will the examiner select a day where he can evaluate my abilities in the conditions you list as needed experience or will I simply pootle around in from of him doing mirror checks and watching my speed? and after I have done my 6F I can buy whatever the hell I want and then fuck off down the road, quite possible no more experienced than when I passed my 6F. I am actually doing around 10-12 hours a week minimum and long rides on the weekend with mates who give me good pointers and I go out with the CBTA instructor when I can so that when I do pass my 6F in 12 fucking months I am actually as prepared for the road as I can be. thanks for well considered reply and please don't lump me in with the idiot OP, I feel my response was somewhat more considered and nothing more than an observation on my experience thus far and with no bleating as I see it, but hey, why consider when you can just hit full drama mode.

I would suggest it comes down to the 'most workable' system. it may have it's flaws, and may have area's it can improve in, but, it's a workable and liveable system. Hell's teeth, learners no longer have the 70kph limit, have 660cc bikes available.. these are bikes DR/XT/DL etc that ARE ridden by many full licence holders....
Why the hell are learners in such a rush? These '660' bikes are as powerful and as fast as the fastest bikes available in the 1960/70's but with better brakes, tyres etc. The one thing that has NOT advanced is the homo sapien at the throttle.
I've ridden all my adult life as main transport, will have topped 1mill Km's, and I know there are a few on here who would top my life mileage by quite a bit. Funnily enough, we are the ones who are usually saying 'cool it' for the rush to 'big bikes'.
You are right that there is no definite a rider will go out all weathers, or indeed, be nothing more than a sunday rider. There are those who will commute etc and do reasonable hours/distances.
To use your 'training example' there was a short time ago a thread posted by a VERY new rider, who had years of car experience, was doing track days {another huge debate point for skill acquisition}. Was already 'commenting' a sports 250 was too slow and wanted a 600cc track bike,,, he then dropped it {250}and said others commented they were waiting for that to happen as he was pushing it so hard. I was 'decried' by a few here for saying 'slow down'.... simply put he was pushing the bike hard before he had acquired the skills, feel and understanding of taking a motorcycle right to the edge. He admitted he was probably trying to run before he could walk... and thats the point of the year i would suggest, allow a breathing space to gain experience and feel.
You may be the exception to the rule as a learner and get yourself trained, assessed etc, but 95% will not do that, and they need to factor in the worst denominator.

[Tazz]

Well surely that's where the exhaustive testing comes in, if the rider can demonstrate the required confidence & ability then they move up in license - why does it matter if they had their 6r for 3 months or 12 months?

So lets take a look at what you'd have to go through in Germany with their tiered system, which I believe is similar to other European countries in the area.

AFAICR it is age restricted about $3000 NZD in cost for a minimum amount of supervised hours?, first aid course and theory tests AND that 12 months that we have to do, well they have to do 2 years. For that 2 years, <25kW.

Fuck that.

CBTA would have you through the whole system quicker than that one tier. Actually with CBTA you can be though to your full in just over 12 months total now and all people doing those tests are encouraged to have lessons/multiple lessons beforehand.

[FJRider]

my statement was regarding the lack of any advancement beyond that for 12months.

There is nothing that replicates or can replace (or improve on) the time spent ... and experience ... gained by actually riding on the roads.

Training in controlled situations ... end with controlled results.

Confidence in your own (believed) abilities is a good thing ... too often it results in overconfidence. Usually discovered after (during ??) an emergency maneuver on a public road or highway ... caused by an event/action that you thought could not happen (to you) ... or you would see coming.

[Paul in NZ]

If you rode a LAMS bike to its full potential in a licence test you would fail... You would have to ride a non LAMS bike at less than LAMS potential to pass so I don't see the point...

[Moi]

If you rode a LAMS bike to its full potential in a licence test you would fail... You would have to ride a non LAMS bike at less than LAMS potential to pass so I don't see the point...

Why?

10 chars...

[rambaldi]

Why?

10 chars...

They frown at you getting an elbow down during the tests but only because they are jealous they can't keep up.

[TheDemonLord]

There is nothing that replicates or can replace (or improve on) the time spent ... and experience ... gained by actually riding on the roads.

Training in controlled situations ... end with controlled results.

Can I get you to clarify this statement?

Are you saying the doing say skills training off of the Road isn't useful? or are you saying that training can help with trained responses?

[RGVforme]

I would suggest it comes down to the 'most workable' system. it may have it's flaws, and may have area's it can improve in, but, it's a workable and liveable system. Hell's teeth, learners no longer have the 70kph limit, have 660cc bikes available.. these are bikes DR/XT/DL etc that ARE ridden by many full licence holders....
Why the hell are learners in such a rush? These '660' bikes are as powerful and as fast as the fastest bikes available in the 1960/70's but with better brakes, tyres etc. The one thing that has NOT advanced is the homo sapien at the throttle.
I've ridden all my adult life as main transport, will have topped 1mill Km's, and I know there are a few on here who would top my life mileage by quite a bit. Funnily enough, we are the ones who are usually saying 'cool it' for the rush to 'big bikes'.
You are right that there is no definite a rider will go out all weathers, or indeed, be nothing more than a sunday rider. There are those who will commute etc and do reasonable hours/distances.
To use your 'training example' there was a short time ago a thread posted by a VERY new rider, who had years of car experience, was doing track days {another huge debate point for skill acquisition}. Was already 'commenting' a sports 250 was too slow and wanted a 600cc track bike,,, he then dropped it {250}and said others commented they were waiting for that to happen as he was pushing it so hard. I was 'decried' by a few here for saying 'slow down'.... simply put he was pushing the bike hard before he had acquired the skills, feel and understanding of taking a motorcycle right to the edge. He admitted he was probably trying to run before he could walk... and thats the point of the year i would suggest, allow a breathing space to gain experience and feel.
You may be the exception to the rule as a learner and get yourself trained, assessed etc, but 95% will not do that, and they need to factor in the worst denominator.

I did this very thing.Waited until the lams laws were changed bought a DR650 and plan to take my time learning to ride a bike I plan to own until it falls apart(By all accounts this may be some time).I don't get caught up in the Mana bashing fact I have a L plate on my bike at the ripe old age of 39 and understand that exp comes with time(ive been on my 6L since 18) and agree whats the rush now you can get a good cc powered bike that you can grow into instead of step onto on your way past.This and the fact that riding a 250 on the road was at the best of times a very scary event.If you want a rocket ship hit the racetrack where the fines are less the corners are padded and everybody is going the same way.

[FJRider]

Can I get you to clarify this statement?

Are you saying the doing say skills training off of the Road isn't useful? or are you saying that training can help with trained responses?

I said nothing replicates ... or can replace time spent on the road.

Skills training courses can help you practice common and regular problems you can encounter on the road. And I might add ... this "practice" is done in a relatively safe environment. (try to practice emergency stops on the motorway in the rush hour and let me know how you got on)

Some things are not taught during these "Skills Training Courses" ... (where did you learn to lane split .. ??)

"Trained Responses" are good ... but the real test is when you do it for real. NO amount of practice will prepare you for the real deal incident ... or the thoughts and feelings that go through your mind at the time.

[TheDemonLord]

I said nothing replicates ... or can replace time spent on the road.

Skills training courses can help you practice common and regular problems you can encounter on the road. And I might add ... this "practice" is done in a relatively safe environment. (try to practice emergency stops on the motorway in the rush hour and let me know how you got on)

Some things are not taught during these "Skills Training Courses" ... (where did you learn to lane split .. ??)

"Trained Responses" are good ... but the real test is when you do it for real. NO amount of practice will prepare you for the real deal incident ... or the thoughts and feelings that go through your mind at the time.

I think there is much to be discussed here - for starters the phrase (and practice used by numerous institutions) 'The more you sweat in practice, the Less you bleed in combat' (or the numerous variants of it)

No Amount of practice prepares you for the real deal? There is a nugget of truth in that, I'll concede but I think you are vastly overstating that nugget of truth - were your position the correct one, then things like NASS, Advanced Rider courses, ACC funded schemes, our tiered licensing system wouldn't make any difference to riders, and I'd probably be dead.

There is a time and a place to put skills learned in a safe environment into the real world - which could be considered taking ones riding from 50% skilled (from practicing in the controlled environment) to 75% skilled (practice plus real world experiance) as opposed to going from 0 - 75% and hoping people make it alive to the 75% mark.

Sure the Real world is ultimately were we ride and were our skills are honed, and most importantly - where they matter - but training gives us the tools so that when we get to the real world, we already know enough to hopefully not twat ourselves while we hone our skills.

[FJRider]

I think there is much to be discussed here - for starters the phrase (and practice used by numerous institutions) 'The more you sweat in practice, the Less you bleed in combat' (or the numerous variants of it)

Think ... if you don't bleed in practice ... you're not practicing hard enough. Blood on the tarmac is never a pretty sight though .. and I try to avoid leaving any myself ...

No Amount of practice prepares you for the real deal? There is a nugget of truth in that, I'll concede but I think you are vastly overstating that nugget of truth - were your position the correct one, then things like NASS, Advanced Rider courses, ACC funded schemes, our tiered licensing system wouldn't make any difference to riders, and I'd probably be dead.

Time spent on a firing range will NEVER prepare you for the time ... when the targets start shooting back.

Knowing how to use the weapons you have ... does help though.


There are many on this site that had NO tiered licensing system when they started riding ... on machines that handled a dam sight worse than the ones in the last 20 years. With NO "training" from the people you stated above. They managed to stay alive ... why couldn't you .. ???

There is a time and a place to put skills learned in a safe environment into the real world - which could be considered taking ones riding from 50% skilled (from practicing in the controlled environment) to 75% skilled (practice plus real world experiance) as opposed to going from 0 - 75% and hoping people make it alive to the 75% mark.

On any given training course ... at any time ... not all course participants finish with the same level of ability.

What they retain in their head for/during future incidents ... will vary too.

Rider ability will never scored by the number (or type) of training courses you've attended. To retain skills ... continual practice is needed. The ability to remember the content of a course you did three years ago ... is limited to a select few. Are you one of the few ..??

Sure the Real world is ultimately were we ride and were our skills are honed, and most importantly - where they matter - but training gives us the tools so that when we get to the real world, we already know enough to hopefully not twat ourselves while we hone our skills.

See above ... But in the real world ... situations WILL arise that will never be discussed on any training course.