Death by Cheesecutter, again?

[sidecar bob]

My 14 year old son quizzed me where I stood on the Wrb debate while driving home the other night, apparently it's a topic in social studies in his class at the moment.
I told him that I thought the protestors were a bunch of fuckin muppets, as is well documented on here, & we proceeded to identify all the hazards that could kill a motorcyclist for the rest of the journey home, none of them being wrb's, as there were none.
When we arrived home, It was decided that the best way to stay alive on a motorbike, was to hit nothing, wrb's included.

[nzspokes]

Basic physics. Very basic.

If you hit a concrete wall head on, at 90 degrees fast enough to generate about 40g then you're dead.
Hit it at 45 degrees at the same speed and you're going to experience 24g. Likely broken stuff, trip to ED. A bit sore.
Hit it at 15 degrees, (the max angle most likely in a barrier accident) and you're going to experience 6.8g. Likely to be some grazing. A bit miffed.

Hit a WRB post at the same speed at 90 degrees, (ignoring, for the moment the fact that the impact's spread over nowhere near as much of your body, so about half the above sped is all that's required) and you're dead. There isn't another option, you can't hit them at any other angle.

So yeah, very emotive.

Yerp. But the assumption there is you hit the wire. I reckon its the posts that bother me more if you are sliding. Same with the W barriers.

More wires would spread the energy and have a better outcome?

But dont plan on finding out.

[Ocean1]

Yerp. But the assumption there is you hit the wire. I reckon its the posts that bother me more if you are sliding. Same with the W barriers.

More wires would spread the energy and have a better outcome?

But dont plan on finding out.

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

[nzspokes]

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

Fair call, read it wrong. Thats what took a mates leg off.

[russd7]

Basic physics. Very basic.

If you hit a concrete wall head on, at 90 degrees fast enough to generate about 40g then you're dead.
Hit it at 45 degrees at the same speed and you're going to experience 24g. Likely broken stuff, trip to ED. A bit sore.
Hit it at 15 degrees, (the max angle most likely in a barrier accident) and you're going to experience 6.8g. Likely to be some grazing. A bit miffed.

Hit a WRB post at the same speed at 90 degrees, (ignoring, for the moment the fact that the impact's spread over nowhere near as much of your body, so about half the above sped is all that's required) and you're dead. There isn't another option, you can't hit them at any other angle.

So yeah, very emotive.

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

[nzspokes]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

Is Cassina at your place tonight?

[russd7]

I didn't mention the wire. I did specifically mention the posts.

Again, try hitting a post at less than 90 degrees.

so are you going to start bitching about all the road signs, trees, the miles and miles of farmers fences etc as well.
and actually it is possible to glance off a post depending on how you hit them
ride to stay on

[russd7]

Is Cassina at your place tonight?

yeah naaa, i dont fall off like she does

[swbarnett]

how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees.

He's talking about the posts. Even at 15degrees to the barrier you'll hit them at 90degrees (roughly)

[Ocean1]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees

And I'm emotive.

I gave you facts. You don't have to believe them, but publicly saying so sorta makes you look uneducated.

Think about it real hard, how the fuck are you going to hit a vertical post while traveling in a horizontal plane at anything other than head on?

Actually, don't bother, the strain will just get you all hormonal again.

[skippa1]

And I'm emotive.

I gave you facts. You don't have to believe them, but publicly saying so sorta makes you look uneducated.

Think about it real hard, how the fuck are you going to hit a vertical post while traveling in a horizontal plane at anything other than head on?

Actually, don't bother, the strain will just get you all hormonal again.

The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists.....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?

[James Deuce]

The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists.....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?

I argued many years ago that the posts were the issue and the threat is exacerbated by their frequency when compared to single row Armco. I was shot in the face for going against the flow. Their main application is supposed to be in tandem with a central reservation. The WRB are designed to absorb energy by stretching. When used with central reservations, even large trucks can be arrested before they make it to the opposing lanes. My opposition is based on their largely incorrect installation in NZ and lack of desire to clad the posts, something being done around the world, not the potential for the wires to do anything to a motorcyclist.

[eldog]

yup as i said emotive, back it up with evidence, how the fuck is it only possible to hit a WRB only at 90 degrees. firstly what the fuck are you doing that you are going to hit one at 90 degrees, secondly the stats that i have seen all suggest that you are way more likely to die hitting a concrete barrier than hitting a WRB.
to me if you hit a concrete barrier side on i would suggest that the chances of ending up on ya arse in the lane you have just come from are quite high meaning that the chances of being hit by other vehicles is quite high.

dont give me any shit about accidents just happen ra de ra, a lot of accidents that i have seen reported etc could have been avoided so how do you end up hitting a barrier in the first place and yes i have had traffic move on to me in a lane but i just get out of their way either in front or behind but i don't try and continue to occupy the space that vehicle wants, not worth it they will win, yes i have hit oil, gravel, white lines in the wet, tar bleed in the wet, i have had the back wheel spin up passing a truck in the wet causing a tank slapper, have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me but i don't blame anyone else for those things except myself and have stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed.
i ride southern roads where we can on occasion have traffic coming the wrong way or stopped in the middle of the road to take a picture but again we ride to expect the unexpected.

the energy spent on bitching about WRB would be better spent upskilling and then you might ride not expecting to come off but knowing better how to stay on your bike then the type of barrier wont bother you so much.

Ever thought about the reasoning about where different types of barriers are used? its not related to $ alone.
If you replaced the concrete barriers with say WRBs or removed them would the outcomes be any different?
Your chance of surviving is far greater than if there was no barrier and you had a headon (or a vehicle crossed the median into your path)
Pushing you back into your lane gives you a better chance, you are already travelling in the same direction as the other vehicles. hopefully they will be stopping to.
Far better than being flung into the path of opposing traffic IMHO

Accidents are the result of something going wrong or a mistake being made.

You don't blame anyone else for these events - did you cause them? "have had tractors coming out of paddocks without looking, have had cars pull out of intersections in front of me"
so now we have someone to blame? not the driver that was in control?
Sure you "stayed calm and dealt with all situations as needed" - that's what should happen, ride to the conditions

I am not bitching about WRBs alone, its about barriers including ARMCO, W which have exposed posts.
Upskilling is a great way of avoiding these but shit does happen.

[nzspokes]

I argued many years ago that the posts were the issue and the threat is exacerbated by their frequency when compared to single row Armco. I was shot in the face for going against the flow. Their main application is supposed to be in tandem with a central reservation. The WRB are designed to absorb energy by stretching. When used with central reservations, even large trucks can be arrested before they make it to the opposing lanes. My opposition is based on their largely incorrect installation in NZ and lack of desire to clad the posts, something being done around the world, not the potential for the wires to do anything to a motorcyclist.

Yerp, you got it.

[Ocean1]

The point does remain though that WRBs are just one type of safety device installed that rely on "posts" to support them. Armco does too, signs, traffic lights, lamp posts all present solid obstacles that have caused serious injury or death to motorcyclists....there are more of those obstacles and yet there is no call to ban them.
The basic protest is usually the "cheese cutter" claim that the wire will cut you in half....this is the debate is it not?

Don't make me quote my last half dozen "posts".

The minute I heard the term "cheese cutter" I knew any chance we had of mitigating or limiting their use was well fucked. It's a fucking stupid term, just asking to be shot down by the army of conformists safety Nazis that don't actually bother to read or listen any further than that label.