North Korea

[Katman]

Tis a risk to be sure - but again - before NK had Rhetoric only, now they have Rhetoric and an ability to deliver a Nuclear weapon

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.

[James Deuce]

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.

And is about to use some in stupidity.

[Crasherfromwayback]

The world forgets the terrorist actions of the French State (not a "revolutionary" group, either) in New Zealand.
All of the superpowers went rather silent.


.

Yep. I'm still dirty on that.

[TheDemonLord]

The Gneisnau and Scharnhost were heavy Cruisers.

No.

Main Calibre larger than 8 inch, Belt armour of 350 mm (compared to say 100 mm of the IJN Myoko - a Heavy Cruiser).

They were Battleships or at a stretch - Battlecruisers

The British fleet complied with the 1923 Washington Treaty and their newer Battleships and Battlecruisers were heavily compromised as a result, and the refit of their WW1-era Battleships left them underpowered and underarmed. The only relevant large surface warship by the start of WWII were Fleet Carriers, but the major powers took a couple of years to understand that. In the meantime German submarines caused a nightmare that is difficult for us to understand because we don't think about warfare in terms of large scale global logistics over a long period of time. If WWIII started now, we'd all be dead by Christmas so the things that were drivers during WWII just aren't relevant.

Compromised yes - but I think you are overstating the case. Rodney and Nelson - despite their issues, served with distinction.

WWII started in 1933, but our peculiarly White ethnocentric historical constructs just can't encompass a massive land war in Asia as anything important. If the European (lets ignore the Iberian peninsula for now) part of WWII started in 1935 it would have ended in a year alright with Hitler holding a big chunk of central Europe following an Armistice leaving him allied with Spain and Italy and with the resources to build a resilient industrial base. The lack of stomach for war following WW1 is not something that is part of our culture, much the same way a middle class anti-vax mother wouldn't give her kid a polio shot because she's never seen a polio victim up close.

BS - Hitler didn't have enough equipment in 1935.

In 1939 - the Tank production was about 400/year - Total Tank Strength was 3,500 in 1939 - work backwards 5 years - you've got 1,500 tanks - France had something like 4-5000 tanks in this same time period.

[TheDemonLord]

And let's just remind ourselves which country is the only one to have used one in anger - twice.

Oh look - another thing Katman hates about the US and felt compelled to mention.

What.
A.
Surprise.

[Maha]

Oh look - another thing Katman hates about the US and felt compelled to mention.

What.
A.
Surprise.

It's a wonder seeing that he enjoys those who fuck back...........harder.

[T.W.R]

The V1 is more correctly described as a barely-guided cruise missile and the V2 a medium range ballistic missile. Neither were Inter-continental in nature. Because we live in the middle of nowhere, it's a bit difficult to grok that the distance between northern France where the V1 launch sites were to start with and London is a bit like Auckland to Hamilton.

Russia fired a V2 at the moon and actually hit it. That was probably the V2's greatest moment, but we only hear about comparatively timid efforts made in the US. Tsiolkovsky was a better rocket engineer than von Braun but had to fight hard for every resource, rather than the never-ending stream of $6000 toilets and $800 hammers the US military-led space programme got to play with up until people got bored with the moon landings.

I agree with your analysis of the mood in Germany prior to 1933 too. All Hitler had to do as chancellor was borrow enough money to get an industrial programme underway to make it look like he'd delivered on his campaign promises. Then people didn't think all that hard about the wilder extremes of policy that began to happen once Hindenburg died, so logn as they weren't affected directly.

Yeah I agree but I was a bit over zealous with the use of the term but it is detracting from the original point.
However 120 odd kms in distance at the time was no mean feat and well in advance of anything else and to add it's nearly 10x the distance of the narrowest point between Europe & Africa

[James Deuce]

No.

Main Calibre larger than 8 inch, Belt armour of 350 mm (compared to say 100 mm of the IJN Myoko - a Heavy Cruiser).

They were Battleships or at a stretch - Battlecruisers



Compromised yes - but I think you are overstating the case. Rodney and Nelson - despite their issues, served with distinction.



BS - Hitler didn't have enough equipment in 1935.

In 1939 - the Tank production was about 400/year - Total Tank Strength was 3,500 in 1939 - work backwards 5 years - you've got 1,500 tanks - France had something like 4-5000 tanks in this same time period.

Didn't need the equipment. As I said, there was absolutely no stomach for war as evidenced by Hitler simply annexing chunks of France and Czechoslovakia from '36 onward, and wasn't militarily in a much better state. France would not have taken the field. They suffered horrendously in WW1 and in '35 the Army was mostly vets of the previous conflict. They wouldn't have come out to play. By '39 you had a fresh stream of professionals and conscripts.

[T.W.R]

"This proves our germans were better than the Russian's germans"

V1 and V2 were massive leaps in technology - but they didn't win a war, did they? Case in point the T34 tank vs the Tiger and Panther - arguably the Tiger and the Panther were better tanks, but weren't able to be produced in enough numbers to impact the outcome.

The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months

The Bismark and Tirpitz - The Gneisnau and Scharnhost - All very powerful Battleships, but again, that is 4 vs the entire Royal Navy (which had something like 20+ Battleship/Battlecruisers I think)

My point being that the Advanced weaponary is good, but you need it in sufficient quantities to effect the battle - as you say, too little, too late.

You should read the Battle of the river Plate give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Though have a think about Dunkirk what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

[Voltaire]

The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months



You should read the Battle of the river Plate give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Though have a think about Dunkirk what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

I think you might have to a read up on German and Russian tanks

My memory is a bit vague but the Germans really only Panzer 1 and 2's in the mid 30's and then the Pz 3 and 4 at the start of the war.
The PZ 3 had a 50mm gun but the PZ4 had a 74 and was the mainstay of the wehrmacht for the war.
The Panther was a response to the T34 which I think turned up in late 1941 when the Germans were at the gates of Moscow.
It was based in a US design called the Christie.Main feature of t34 was sloped armour and 76mm gun along with wide tracks for poor conditions.
The Panther was plagued by reliability issues and the Tiger 1 was just to complex,slow and heavy. Good in North Africa though but eventually 1 of the 10 Shermans ( junk ) will get you.
Tank numbers were boosted by the invasion of Czechoslovakia who had the rather nice T38 which made great gun platforms.
The Germans captured a lot of French and British tanks but they were pretty crap.

Porsche who was Hitlers car/tank buddy suggested they build the T34 and it had a great alloy Diesel engine ( American inspired???)

The King Tiger was a Porsche design and not very good, they became Elefant gun platforms.

Best WW2 tank by miles , the T34. German tanks were too complicated as was most of their stuff.

The German navy other than the U Boats was bottled up for most of the war, The Royal Navy may not have been as modern but there was lots of it.

They should have just focused on PZ 4's and Focke Wolves instead of the plethora of side show designs like the Blohm & Voss BV 141, Tiger 2, Arado Ar 234 and

other oddities.

Dunkirk, the Germans really messed that up.

[T.W.R]

I think you might have to a read up on German and Russian tanks

My memory is a bit vague but the Germans really only Panzer 1 and 2's in the mid 30's and then the Pz 3 and 4 at the start of the war.
The PZ 3 had a 50mm gun but the PZ4 had a 74 and was the mainstay of the wehrmacht for the war.
The Panther was a response to the T34 which I think turned up in late 1941 when the Germans were at the gates of Moscow.
It was based in a US design called the Christie.Main feature of t34 was sloped armour and 76mm gun along with wide tracks for poor conditions.
The Panther was plagued by reliability issues and the Tiger 1 was just to complex,slow and heavy. Good in North Africa though but eventually 1 of the 10 Shermans ( junk ) will get you.
Tank numbers were boosted by the invasion of Czechoslovakia who had the rather nice T38 which made great gun platforms.
The Germans captured a lot of French and British tanks but they were pretty crap.

Porsche who was Hitlers car/tank buddy suggested they build the T34 and it had a great alloy Diesel engine ( American inspired???)

The King Tiger was a Porsche design and not very good, they became Elefant gun platforms.

Best WW2 tank by miles , the T34. German tanks were too complicated as was most of their stuff.


Dunkirk, the Germans really messed that up.

Panthers Panzers lol my bad,

as for the King Tiger, I was thinking of the Panzer VIII Maus....just did a quick search & I see it was actually 5 ordered, 2 built, & 1 completed.......at 188ton she was one big mother fucker

The T34 was several variants of development further down the track from the BT which was based on the Christie design.

Dunkirk wasn't so much a German screw-up more the fact the advance was so swift they'd out run their supply and the stupid narrow french roads choked the line and caused a logistical nightmare bugger all fuel, ammunition, & food

[TheDemonLord]

The Germans were using tigers & Panthers at the beginning of the war, the Russian Cossacks lead the last cavalry charge recorded against them at one point early in to WWII
The T34 admittedly the best light heavy weight tank built didn't make an appearance until a few years in just the same as if the Germans had produced the King Tiger earlier imagine what effect that would of had, shit I think only 6 if that made it into the war theater in the last few months

See Voltaire's reply

You should read the Battle of the river Plate give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy
And for that fact in regards to the Bismarck how it met it's demise and how she sailed right under the British navy's nose basically giving them a right royal FU
Head to head the the German ships were far better than the Royal Navy thus they had to resort to dirty tactics to succeed...but that's war.

Ah Captain Lansdorf and the Graf Spee - However, if you recall - The Royal Navy won that Battle and the Graf Spee ended up Sunk.

In regards to the Bismark - yes there was some Fog of War and some lessons leaned about inter-service communications

Head-to-Head the German ships had some advantages - For example - the British BL15 inch Naval gun was tested by the US after the war - and found to be the most Accurate of all the Naval artillery.

As for Dirty Tactics - you've mispelled "Winning Tactics"

Though have a think about Dunkirk what a major difference that would've been if the Germans hadn't halted their advance shit the Poms were even thinking of a conditional surrender because they were basically well fucked

For Sure - We were royally fucked at Dunkirk - Hitler was hoping that the British would join him, so sparred them a Slaughter.

[pritch]

You should read the Battle of the river Plate give you a bit of an idea of the class of the british navy

HMS Achilles, one of the protagonists in the 1939 battle was a New Zealand ship. Until October 1941 the NZ navy was the New Zealand Division of the Royal Navy. Thereafter it became the RNZN, and the ships prefixed HMNZS.

My old man was in the navy throughout WW2. At one point there was serious concern that a surface raider, such as Graf Spee, would sail around the Horn and lay waste to the shipping from Australia, New Zealand and wherever, that was keeping Britain supplied with food. So he and a small crew were despatched to the Chatham Islands to set up equipment and establish a 24 hour radio listening watch.

As a result of this experience his views on Naval Intelligence were rather scathing. He was told to submit any questions they had and the spooks would supply answers.
He said that while the answers may not have been wrong technically, most were useless.

I can't remember all of the things he mentioned, but naturally the team wanted to know if there were trees on the island for the aerials. Yes was the reply, there are trees on the Island. Indeed there were trees but they were very low extremely windswept things on the other side of the Island from where the people lived. I guess the team slung the wire work between the buildings.

Never did ask him what the plan was should they have intercepted radio traffic indicating a cat was about to get among the pigeons.

[Voltaire]

Russia fired a V2 at the moon and actually hit it. That was probably the V2's greatest moment, but we only hear about comparatively timid efforts made in the US. .

Never heard of that one, I asked Google and he said it sounded like a Sunday Sport story.

I did see Iron Sky ...was it part of that?

[ellipsis]

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https://youtu.be/9EGvhkOM0Dk


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