How much do we really know about our history?

**jellywrestler** · 6th July 2018, 14:13

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

When Maori first arrived here (lets say 900 years ago)

so it was never their land in the first fucking place?

**Katman** · 6th July 2018, 14:27

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

so it was never their land in the first fucking place?

Dude, get with the program - they fished it out of the sea.

**Swoop** · 6th July 2018, 15:27

Originally Posted by Katman

That's a good point.

The land that the Papakura Army Camp stood on was taken from the McLennan family at the start of WW2.

They were told about 20 years ago that if they wanted to lay any claim to the land now that they would be expected to pay what it was valued at with all the amenities that it has today.

Unfortunately for the McLennan family there wasn't a Disputes process that would allow them to demand the land back for the pittance they were probably paid at the time.

There are more instances of governmental land acquisitions which were never returned to the rightful owners.
Out in West Auckland there was a proposal to move the port into an entirely unsuitable area, which sensibly never went ahead, but land owners were not respected.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/...ectid=11526447

Certainly there is an aspect of the Gravy Train not being stopped, however there needs to be a line drawn in the sand, however unlikely in our modern societal ways of "not offending anyone".

**Ocean1** · 6th July 2018, 21:03

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

OK a little history as I remember it… No while I’m old I’m not that old so mostly from reading the popular histories.

When Maori first arrived here (lets say 900 years ago) they possessed open ocean voyaging technology. Relatively quickly in say 100 years or so, they had located most of the valuable resources they required. Namely sources of minerals for tools, protein (seals and Moa) and suitable land for gardening. Unfortunately its rare to never that all 3 things were present at any 1 site so there was a considerable amount of travelling. Indeed its highly likely that return trips were made to the points of origin as well. In this era everyone likely spoke the same dialect.

Eventually people sort of specialised. They would build more permanent camps where a certain resource existed and trade for what they didn’t have. That was the start of the tribal era. Since gardening was only really suited for warmer places the populations centred to the north.
Eventually open ocean voyaging technology was lost and coastal voyages were the norm. Local dialects appeared BUT norther tribes could still understand enough to get by with southern ones..

Some resources dried up (Moa) and as the populations increased demands / contests for resources produced conflict and tribal wars began. Given the weaponry these didn’t really impact population numbers much.

Europeans arrived and Maori figured out pretty fast that access to new technology from muskets, metal tools, clothing and boats/ships gave one group a massive advantage. Pre treaty chiefs competed to encourage settles to get access to these things. Education was highly valued…

Once muskets appeared in numbers it was all on. Muskets coupled with European diseases decimated the populations and muskets in particular meant long held grudges we dragged up, had an UTU sticker plastered over it and used as an excuse to butcher.

Increasing settler number started to pressure local population and eventually we had the treaty

Sounds about right. I don't think there's much doubt there was several waves of Polynesian colonists dating from about 700 years ago. Earliest dated artifacts from about then are similar to known tropical Polynesian work. I've seen less evidence of return voyages. Some, but not enough to indicate likely regular traffic, especially given that later artifacts show continuing divergence from the original work, (so no trade). Tribal coastal migration was observed by the first European visitors.

All Polynesians carry genetic markers from Korean stock, some via the Philippines, cultural anthropologists can identify a few Maori language elements from there hundreds of generations old. They can for all of the Polynesian languages. But even if the original NZ colonists were of the same immediate Polynesian source, (unlikely) several hundred years is plenty of time for even neighboring tribes's language to diverge substantially.

Charlie's family taught him he was Maoriori. He did have that look about him, and he was full of stories about "his people". I was taught at school that remnants existed in the deep south, and that was generally accepted down there. Which isn't current history. I guess it's easier to justify slaughtering a whole culture if they're just another Maori tribe. The truth might be somewhere in the middle, there, and he was certainly, like the rest of us somewhat of a mongrel, but there's little doubt Charlie was culturally significantly different.

**Swoop** · 7th July 2018, 20:02

Originally Posted by Ocean1

All Polynesians carry genetic markers from Korean stock, some via the Philippines, cultural anthropologists can identify a few Maori language elements from there hundreds of generations old.

There is a solid link with the wood carving techniques which would indicate a connection with Taiwan.

**Paul in NZ** · 7th July 2018, 21:20

Originally Posted by jellywrestler

so it was never their land in the first fucking place?

Well lets just say there was nobody else here to dispute it?

Dont ignore it was some feat to land here and I seriously doubt they just fucked off with wives and families into the great unknowwn without knowing... opps - sorry bit pissed

**98tls** · 7th July 2018, 22:11

Originally Posted by Kickaha

We were taught, the stick games, poi, haka etc at Cheviot school in the 70s and they were done on stage at school shows

Thankfully just a few miles up the road i managed to avoid the Cheviot school

**98tls** · 7th July 2018, 22:19

Originally Posted by Ocean1

Correct. What's more his general history of the south matches what I heard almost 60 years ago from possibly the most authoritative Ngai Tahu source available. As does his observation that the deep south Maori language was more or less unintelligible to northern Maori.

Thankfully then every night when we watch the weather forecast we get to hear the correct version both North n South

**Kickaha** · 8th July 2018, 09:02

Originally Posted by 98tls

Thankfully just a few miles up the road i managed to avoid the Cheviot school

Well if you went to Parnassus I couldn't see it being any better

**sidecar bob** · 8th July 2018, 09:37

Originally Posted by Paul in NZ

Well lets just say there was nobody else here to dispute it?

I think there was & they may have been delicious & easy to hunt.
http://www.everythingiselectric.com/...tone-city.html
Why are Maori actively destroying this historically significant site with zero intervention.

**george formby** · 8th July 2018, 10:19

Originally Posted by sidecar bob

I think there was & they may have been delicious & easy to hunt.
http://www.everythingiselectric.com/...tone-city.html
Why are Maori actively destroying this historically significant site with zero intervention.

That's a can of worms.

A local lady "found" an area of possible stone structures in Puketi forest, just like those in the Waipoua forest. She informed DoC who promptly bull dozed the area.

She has photos, drawings and artifacts from the site but refuses to make them public for some reason. Among her broader collection of artifacts, gathered from years of amateur archaeology, are quite a few which look nothing like Maori work.

Definitely summit being swept under the rug up here IMHO.

Proof of pre Maori settlement would change a lot of things.