The firearm thread

[jafagsx250]

With no prejudice I'm interested in the reasoning behind this. I'm not looking to poke holes etc, just educating myself.

If you consider the Australian experience.

They were very generous with their buy back. Cost plus 25 percent of the rrp.

But the numbers from the state of Victoria, with the best records shows that 2 percent of the amount of Semis handed in were centre fire. As in Ar15 sort of thing.

Half were rimfire.
Only 10 percent of the 300,000 sks were handed in.
Illegal guns are very common. Everyone I know over there who owns guns legally knows someone who offered them an Ar15 and is likely to be bona fide. So they can still be accessed.

So if you look at the gang shooting last week that left 8 people dead. And how we currently don't have that sort of violence here. Then the inference being that there's only one way to go and that's down hill.

They banned them 23 years ago.

But like here they either don't act on their intelligence or don't jail hardened criminal for a decent time. Recently even after Christchurch a guy with an illegal gun got home d. It's insane.

With no decent likelihood of getting caught. Low penalties when you are. And a lot of firepower and money floating around then I'd expect the criminals to move from cut down 12 gauge and 22 and move to ar15's.

[husaberg]

If you consider the Australian experience.

They were very generous with their buy back. Cost plus 25 percent of the rrp.

But the numbers from the state of Victoria, with the best records shows that 2 percent of the amount of Semis handed in were centre fire. As in Ar15 sort of thing.

Half were rimfire.
Only 10 percent of the 300,000 sks were handed in.
Illegal guns are very common. Everyone I know over there who owns guns legally knows someone who offered them an Ar15 and is likely to be bona fide. So they can still be accessed.

So if you look at the gang shooting last week that left 8 people dead. And how we currently don't have that sort of violence here. Then the inference being that there's only one way to go and that's down hill.

They banned them 23 years ago.

But like here they either don't act on their intelligence or don't jail hardened criminal for a decent time. Recently even after Christchurch a guy with an illegal gun got home d. It's insane.

With no decent likelihood of getting caught. Low penalties when you are. And a lot of firepower and money floating around then I'd expect the criminals to move from cut down 12 gauge and 22 and move to ar15's.

So what you are saying is these people you constantly refer to as law abiding gun owners being treated unfairly as if they were criminals are actually just criminals anyway, as they somehow feel they have the right to break laws.
Not only that everyone of these people you refer to as law abiding gun owners in Victoria you know are criminals as well. You knowing they have illegal guns makes you a criminal.
Lastly when you say look at what happened here last week and then say we currently dont have that sort of violence here in NZ it makes your point redundant. As we clearly do.
The gangs still use shotguns and 22's here in spite of them easily being able to get other weapons legally, what makes you think now other weapons are illegal they will suddenly change to illegal weapons.
ESP considering your gun lobby group says this

COLFO knows that restrictions on one type of firearm will only prompt criminals to move to the use of another firearms type Even Australia’s most vocal gun control advocate accepts
that the banning of semi-automatic rifles in Australia has simply led to a spike in the criminal use of handguns as criminals moved from one type of firearm to another.

And this

Police estimate that firearms are involved in 1.3% of violent crimes in New Zealand, and lessthan .5% of total crime in the past five years. In other words, over 99% of crime does not involve a firearm

But best of all prior to the shooting we have this gem

COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost,effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remains comfortably fit for purpose. COLFO considers that its members and the public can and shouldtake pride in the system.

COLFO emphatically, implacably and unreservedly opposes the registration of firearms as it will not in any way, shape or form prevent the criminal acquisition or use of firearms a

But this one is the best

The Re-Categorisation of Semiautomatic Long Arms to Restricted Category:
COLFO understands Police may wish to get all semiautomatic long arms re-categorised as restricted and to be held on an “E” Endorsement. This is opposed as pointless, and far beyond the terms of reference of this enquiry. COLFO believes that it is inappropriate to consider this.If it is raised now it should be countered with some evidence based facts.

The person who killed 50 people in a matter of minutes was a licenced gun owner.

[TheDemonLord]

The fundamental point in my posts is you are to belligerent to realise your points are self centered and wrong. The reason so few care about you losing your AR10 is the attitude you are currently displaying.

You mean I'm pissed that something that I earned and payed for is being taken away and that the process by which it was done was akin to a Show Trial?

Yes, I am annoyed at that.

Just as you would be annoyed if something you earned and payed for was being taken away under dubious pretenses and without a fair process.

Maybe your mind is just too small to be able to comprehend the big picture.
All you can see is what you have lost, rather than what the rest of the country has gained from the law change.

And prey tell, what have they gained?

Have they made changes to the process by which a FAL is issued?
Have they removed the ability for someone to use a referree who only knows the person from a Forum?
Have they introduced checks to vet a persons online presence/persona to see if they associated with any groups that would render them not a fit and proper person?
Have they enacted the trans-tasman information sharing to allow proper vetting of those from our closest neighbour?

No?

Then they have gained NOTHING.

Proper application of the previous law and a clarification of restricting magazines holding more than 7 rounds of centrefire ammo patterened for a Semi-Auto reciever to E-Cat licence holders would have achieved all that was needed.

[Delerium]

I was just trying to imagine how much butthurt there must be on firearms forums based on how much there is in this thread on a motorbike forum. Personally, having owned firearms in this newly outlawed category, I am 100% behind the government on this one. I do have some empathy for people who may end up financially worse off, but that is just going to have to be collateral damage...

Guess you're a fascist then.

[Delerium]

The poll of voters regarding the new gun laws showed that 61% of Kiwis thought the new law was "about right".

A further 19% of people said the law does not actually go far enough
14%f those surveyed thought the legislation went too far.
5 per cent of people said they did not know. 2 refused to answer.

So unlike the claims of wide spread support only 14 percent of Kiwis think the gun laws went too far.
80% of kiwis either agree with the changes or actually want to see them go even further.

Selection bias, and from the general public that knows fuck all about firearms or what the law was. So not really relevant.

If your figures are base on the submissions then you need to take into account how a north shore councillor manipulated the result by a Facebook campaign getting people to make submissions of I support the change, with nothing more. 6000 of them including from people that aren't in nz or citizens of nz.

Given that when a template was used for license holders to submit at the last review several years ago and they were counted as s single submission, this is democratically repugnant.

You dont know what you're talking about, just spreading your sanctimonious drivel. You're a fascist.

[Delerium]

Well they were all voters. As well as an opinion they have a vote go againt the voters wishes at your own peril, i dont think we can decide as a country that there is a certain degree of expected experience or knowledge before one can either vote of express an opinion or vote.
The numbers that agree is quite telling. As is the across party support.
as only 6% of the population that has a gun licence anyway.
I agree on the last sentence, the work around mods pushing in the AR15 to A class and at the same time freely selling large mags and fighting tooth and nail to allow it to continue to get around the spirit of the rules is one of the reasons for the draconian laws that are now being implemented.

And? So what, fuck minority groups is your position?
Yes wonder why some mps are back peddling now? 6%of general population, a much bigger percentage of voting population. With our family and friends

[RDJ]

The person who killed 50 people in a matter of minutes was a licenced gun owner.

Who let him in the country? Guvvermin flunkies.

Who gave him a FAL? Guvvermin flunkies.

Who was in charge of sacking Police vetters and moving gun vetting online? Mother Terardern.

Who is being held responsible and punished as a group? All the people who did not do any of the above.

But keep fulminating, something to read in the departure lounge

[buggerit]

You mean I'm pissed that something that I earned and payed for is being taken away and that the process by which it was done was akin to a Show Trial?

Yes, I am annoyed at that.

Just as you would be annoyed if something you earned and payed for was being taken away under dubious pretenses and without a fair process.



And prey tell, what have they gained?

Have they made changes to the process by which a FAL is issued?
Have they removed the ability for someone to use a referree who only knows the person from a Forum?
Have they introduced checks to vet a persons online presence/persona to see if they associated with any groups that would render them not a fit and proper person?
Have they enacted the trans-tasman information sharing to allow proper vetting of those from our closest neighbour?

No?

Then they have gained NOTHING.

Proper application of the previous law and a clarification of restricting magazines holding more than 7 rounds of centrefire ammo patterened for a Semi-Auto reciever to E-Cat licence holders would have achieved all that was needed.

Totally agree, just renewed my licence 12 months ago and the process was much more rigorous than this offender experienced,
obviously differences region to region.
Why would you give a firearms licience to someone from a penal colony anyway,but on a serious
note, why let foriegners hold gun licences if we dont have full access to there files from country of origin?

[husaberg]

You mean I'm pissed that something that I earned and payed for is being taken away and that the process by which it was done was akin to a Show Trial?

Yes, I am annoyed at that.

Just as you would be annoyed if something you earned and payed for was being taken away under dubious pretenses and without a fair process.

A normal adult get over such disappointments they do not say they will break the law and generally bahave like a spoilt brat whose have his favorite toy confiscated.

And prey tell, what have they gained?

Have they made changes to the process by which a FAL is issued?
Have they removed the ability for someone to use a referree who only knows the person from a Forum?
Have they introduced checks to vet a persons online presence/persona to see if they associated with any groups that would render them not a fit and proper person?
Have they enacted the trans-tasman information sharing to allow proper vetting of those from our closest neighbour?

No?

Then they have gained NOTHING.

Proper application of the previous law and a clarification of restricting magazines holding more than 7 rounds of centrefire ammo patterened for a Semi-Auto reciever to E-Cat licence holders would have achieved all that was needed.

Really nothing Gained in case you missed it such a person has no ready or legal access to a firearm and magazines such as were used to kill the 50 people in a mater of minutes.
If one innocent persons life will be saved by this change and is placed against your ability to play bang bang, you lose any day of the week.

Who let him in the country? Guvvermin flunkies.

Who gave him a FAL? Guvvermin flunkies.

Who was in charge of sacking Police vetters and moving gun vetting online? Mother Terardern.

Who is being held responsible and punished as a group? All the people who did not do any of the above.

But keep fulminating, something to read in the departure lounge

Time will tell with the the result of a full inquiry we are only speculating, but one thing at a time.
It should be noted that the NZ gun lobby group refereed to the process he obtained the AR15s and large mags as being the best in the world
How could such a system fail if it really was the best in the world clearly it wasnt fit for purpose, So if this was the case why was NZs bigest gun lobby group saying it was.
Could it be they had another agenda themselves.

COLFO is of the view that New Zealands’ legislation is world leading. For its cost, effectiveness and results the New Zealand framework is simply as good as it can be and remainscomfortably fit for purpose.

OLFO opposes:
 Any amendment to the Arms Act (except as regards tariffs for offending) as this
will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal misuse of forearms;
 Any re-classification of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns to an “E”
endorsement as this will make no difference whatsoever to the criminal use of
firearms and will be counterproductive;
 Any restrictions on the lawful use of the firearms as this will make no difference
to the criminal misuse of firearms and will be counterproductive

https://www.parliament.nz/resource/e...e9bc22727ef15d

[Laava]

Guess you're a fascist then.

You just keep guessing then princess.

[sidecar bob]

"Thomas, who describes himself as an unemployed politician" I probably should have posted this in the stupid world thread to be honest.
He is also "breathtakingly sad" well that's a new one.
https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/20740...ates-free.html
You don't have to google very hard to find that he's a serial complainer & affronted by some fairly minor grievances.

[jasonu]

"Thomas, who describes himself as an unemployed politician" I probably should have posted this in the stupid world thread to be honest.
He is also "breathtakingly sad" well that's a new one.
https://www.sunlive.co.nz/news/20740...ates-free.html
You don't have to google very hard to find that he's a serial complainer & affronted by some fairly minor grievances.

What a bunch of queers.

[Delerium]

You just keep guessing then princess.

Hahaha, sure thing. Fascist

[TheDemonLord]

A normal adult get over such disappointments they do not say they will break the law and generally bahave like a spoilt brat whose have his favorite toy confiscated.

Easy to say when it's not you that's affected isn't it....

But more importantly - if the entire process was Fair and unbiased, it would be easier to stomach. However, it was clear from the outset that certain interest groups were using the Tragedy to further their Agenda and doing so at my expense.

And on that basis - Fuck 'em.

Really nothing Gained in case you missed it such a person has no ready or legal access to a firearm and magazines such as were used to kill the 50 people in a mater of minutes.
If one innocent persons life will be saved by this change and is placed against your ability to play bang bang, you lose any day of the week.

Criminals will still have access. See Australia.

The people that commit the Most Firearm related Crime and Firearm related murders (around 90% in this country) will still have access.

In case you missed it, tomorrow, someone could come from Aus, be a member of numerous hate groups online, use a Referree from who only knows them from an online Forum, get issued a FAL, purchase a Rifle and go shoot innocent people.

As everyone keeps pointing out to you, clarifying the rules around E-Cat Magazines would have resolved the problem. Everyone Happy. New Zealanders Safe, Firearm Owners not being Screwed. Everyone Wins.

Then, having a long review into the pitfalls of the current FAL Vetting and FA Management process - perhaps looking into ways of including a persons Online activities as part of the Vetting process, Implementing the trans-tasman Info sharing that has STILL not been implemented, Reinforcing the rules around what constitutes a Valid referee (which would also mean that someone who wanted a FAL would have a cool-down period if they were a Migrant here), Perhaps even introduced a surcharge of 10% on all Firearm related purchases (Firearms, Ammunition, accessories etc.) to adequately fund a dedicated branch of the Police whose sole Remit would be the managing of all Firearm related matters - Similar to the ATF (just without the A and T). Introducing a streamlined process by which a Member of the Public can question an individuals status as 'Fit and Proper', potentially including a mandatory cool-off period when a complaint is made and setting the guidelines as to how such matters are to be investigated. Add in a process for when a Firearms licence lapses, so that Safes are inspected and any Firearms no longer legally held are collected with no prejudice, held for a period of time in case the individual wishes to re-apply. Periodic Mental Health checks as a mandatory condition of holding a FAL. Granting the Police additional powers of Search and Seizure for Gangs and other Criminal Elements so as to remove illegally held Firearms from those who should not have them.

THAT would benefit NZ.

And none of it was looked at. The only thing that was looked at was 'Hurr Durr Ban Scary Black Gun'.

[Voltaire]

Dear Mr Morgan,

Thanks for your letter on offensive words that should be removed from everyday use.
However our Govt Partner has reserved the right to retain the last three for Shane Jones.

Bite the Bullet
Bringing a Knife to a Gunfight
Smoking Gun
Dead Eye
Dodge a Bullet
In the Crosshairs (Cross Hairs)
Jump the Gun
Keep Your Powder Dry
Like Shooting Fish in a Barrel
Long Shot
Loose Cannon
Pack Heat
Powder Keg
Shoot from the Hip
Silver Bullet
Son of a Gun
Shoot Off One’s Mouth
Shoot Oneself In The Foot
Go Off Half-Cocked


Sincerely

Chris Hipkins
Education Minister