ESE's works engine tuner

[katinas]

Run battery powered as total loss. No change to the curve or limiter. Went very well on quarter mile dirt ovals.
It's very common to ditch the alternator rotor on big fourstrokes used for racing. There's invariably enough crank inertia that changing ignition curves to compensate isn't necessary.

Tested much smaller alternator from Honda CRF 450 2012 on VF500 F2 and bad sound, that appears without rotor, almost gone. Engine goes much faster, than with heavy std rotor.
CRF 250 400 rotor magnets are very powerful, looks like neodymium.

[_____]

@Katinas:
That looks nice! Is it a 1:5 cone? Do you know the start diameter? That looks like it might fit my Aprilia RS250

Cheers Chris

[guyhockley]

There have been discussions on here about balance shafts and crankcase volume/compression ratio - this kind of touches on both. it's a Cisco Motors engine for nanolights and paramotors, so not quite as highly tuned as bucket racers, maybe...

Basic Specs:

"ENGINE : Two - Stroke Single Cilinder
CYLINDER : Aluminium with nichel treated
barrel w/6 scavenge ports
BORE x STROKE : 51 X 47 mm
DISPLACEMENT : 175cc
COMPRESSION RATIO : 12:1
INTAKE : By 6 blade reed valve in crankcase
CARBURETTOR : Walbro WB series
MAXIM POWER : 20 KW / 8000 rpm
MAX ROTATION 8100 giri
MAX TORQUE : 22 Nm / 7700 rpm
STARTER: Electrical
TRASMISSION : Belt 508 PV-14G
REDUCTION : Pulley 1/2,6 (Optional 1/2,8 1/3)
SUPPORT ENGINE : 4 Silent-Block radial
FUEL : Unleaded NC 623-02 R.O.N. 95
addition 3% oil syntetich
Coil recharge battery 0.8 ah/hour"


Comment on the balance shaft version weight difference:

"WEIGHT: Engine complete 14.9 KG
WEIGHT: Engine complete of Balance shaft 15.3 KG"

Not much of a weight difference?

Design comment:

"THE SYSTEM
For this model with the belt reduction the engineers have developed a very clever solution that uses the lubrication of the mix to 3% for the pair of gears and bearings to rolling at high speed.
Inside the engine the measures remain unchanged with an increase in the weight very limited but with the vibrations reduction of 70%"

Looking at the exploded drawing it does look as if the balance drive shaft gears and the needle bearing are fed pre-mix inside the case with quite a large space carved out. They don't quote any performance difference between the two crankcase versions...
The other thing that puzzles me is that the ball bearing on the other end of the shaft seems to be outside its oilseal?

All quoted bits from:

http://www.ciscomotors.com/prodotti/...-max-e-175.htm

[Frits Overmars]

"the engineers have developed a very clever solution that uses the lubrication of the mix to 3% for the pair of gears and bearings to rolling at high speed."
All quoted bits from: http://www.ciscomotors.com/prodotti/...-max-e-175.htm

I wonder: did their engineers really develop this very clever solution, or did they just do their reading and adopt a setup that worked fine on moped engines 50 years ago? (not for a balance shaft, but for their primary reduction).
By the way, your link does not seem to work.

[Tim Ey]

The real mystery is how they manage to get 175cm³ out of bore 51 x stroke 47
(In my universe thats 96cm³)

[husaberg]

There have been discussions on here about balance shafts and crankcase volume/compression ratio - this kind of touches on both. it's a Cisco Motors engine for nanolights and paramotors, so not quite as highly tuned as bucket racers, maybe...

Basic Specs:

"ENGINE : Two - Stroke Single Cilinder
CYLINDER : Aluminium with nichel treated
barrel w/6 scavenge ports
BORE x STROKE : 51 X 47 mm
DISPLACEMENT : 175cc
COMPRESSION RATIO : 12:1
INTAKE : By 6 blade reed valve in crankcase
CARBURETTOR : Walbro WB series
MAXIM POWER : 20 KW / 8000 rpm
MAX ROTATION 8100 giri
MAX TORQUE : 22 Nm / 7700 rpm
STARTER: Electrical
TRASMISSION : Belt 508 PV-14G
REDUCTION : Pulley 1/2,6 (Optional 1/2,8 1/3)
SUPPORT ENGINE : 4 Silent-Block radial
FUEL : Unleaded NC 623-02 R.O.N. 95
addition 3% oil syntetich
Coil recharge battery 0.8 ah/hour"


Comment on the balance shaft version weight difference:

"WEIGHT: Engine complete 14.9 KG
WEIGHT: Engine complete of Balance shaft 15.3 KG"

Not much of a weight difference?

Design comment:

"THE SYSTEM
For this model with the belt reduction the engineers have developed a very clever solution that uses the lubrication of the mix to 3% for the pair of gears and bearings to rolling at high speed.
Inside the engine the measures remain unchanged with an increase in the weight very limited but with the vibrations reduction of 70%"

Looking at the exploded drawing it does look as if the balance drive shaft gears and the needle bearing are fed pre-mix inside the case with quite a large space carved out. They don't quote any performance difference between the two crankcase versions...
The other thing that puzzles me is that the ball bearing on the other end of the shaft seems to be outside its oilseal?

All quoted bits from:

http://www.ciscomotors.com/prodotti/...-max-e-175.htm

Same set up as a nsr125 other than it overlaps without breaking into case, with the bearings thats why i assume the mag side is run wet on the NSR125.

Although one 50cc i seen on here by a Dutchman used sealed bearings.

[wobbly]

Having the balance shaft inside the primary case increases the displacement from 96 to 175.
Haha , bloody obvious in another dimension.

[wax]

When it comes to ignition system who here has played with a trigger wheel versus the normal single lump on the flywheel. So a higher resolution. It would seem to me with a full revolution before the system gets to read again that the speed would have changed and thus the timing would be incorrect, where as a higher resolution would be a lot better.

[Carel H]

That's the "n" or "n-1" question. N being current rpm. With a small lump you use the n-1 data for timing and generate the next n-1.

But the lump can be widened and both sides can be used. On the picture you see the first edge to trigger the calculation of "n" and corresponding ignition delay. the second edge starts the delay for the spark.

Made it, worked like a charm, never run it on an engine. But I thought it to be more theoretically correct.

[katinas]

@Katinas:
Is it a 1:5 cone? Do you know the start diameter? That looks like it might fit my Aprilia RS250

Cheers Chris

Yes Chris, cone is 1/5.
Original, Rgv/Rs 250 SAPC engine, flywheel rotor is lightest and smallest from all group of street 250/500 2 strokers and Crf 250/450 EFI(2009-2019) rotors is just fractionally smaller and with multiple short lumps.
Better would be use much smaller Crf 250/450 Carb (2002-2008 add photo ) alternator with long lump easily modified if needed for Rs/Rgv.
Very likely that total loss or smaller rotor together with longer con rod, help a little to mask usual Rgv/Rs power dip at 8000rpm, as piston goes faster through BDC, with less inertia flywheel and longer con rod ( say 110mm vs 106mm on Rgv).

Rgv/Rs SAPC OD-106mm. Inside –90mm.
CRF250/450 (2009-2016) OD- 90mm. Inside-78mm. neodymium ( multiple lumps ) stator inside 32mm
CRF250/450 (2002-2008) OD 75mm. Inside-63mm (two lumps one long and one short add photo ) stator inside ?
CRF450 (2017-2019) OD- 102mm Inside- 90mm neodymium
CR 125 only 2004 stator, with thick wire, generated low voltage OD -75 mm Inside- 63mm stator inside -27mm ( But with CR s alternators it would be more work to adapt, as stator arranged to engine side like on first generation Rgv VJ21, not on cover like SAPC Rgv/Rs)
VF 500 OD- 136mm. Inside-115mm

With Honda CR 125 2004 (low voltage 12v plus and very likely Crf 250/450 2002-2008 just opposite stator location ) 8 poles stator and two plates, its easy to make alternator for V2 90 engine( add photo). Tested on NS 250 and works fine with two 2004 Cdi KSRA with inside voltage converters, but it must work with programmable Ignitech or Zeeltronic too. With two plates it is possible adjust different timing for both cylinders just in seconds at testing..
CR 125 2002-2003 and 2005-2007 alternator stator with 4 poles ( middle voltage type 70v plus) not worked for V90 two cylinders with two std Cr 125 cdi . Not tested with CR 125 2001 and older, 8 poles high voltage alternators.

[41juergen]

Hi guy's,
when doing a radius to the transfer entry as shown in the pic, do I need to replate the cylinder? I thought that should be not nesseccary as long the plating was not damaged while grinding, right?

[husaberg]

Yes Chris, cone is 1/5.
Original, Rgv/Rs 250 SAPC engine, flywheel rotor is lightest and smallest from all group of street 250/500 2 strokers and Crf 250/450 EFI(2009-2018) rotor is just fractionally smaller and with multiple short lumps.
Better would be use much smaller Crf 250/450 Carb (2002-2008 add photo ) alternator with long lump easily modified if needed for Rs/Rgv.
Very likely that total loss or smaller rotor together with longer con rod, help a little to mask usual Rgv/Rs power dip at 8000rpm, as piston goes faster through BDC, with less inertia flywheel and longer con rod ( say 110mm vs 106mm on Rgv).

Rgv/Rs SAPC OD-106mm. Inside –90mm.
CRF250/450 (2009-2018) OD- 90mm. Inside-78mm. ( multiple lumps ) stator inside 32mm
CRF250/450 (2002-2008) OD 75mm. Inside-63mm (two lumps one long and one short add photo ) stator inside ?
CR 125 only 2004 stator, with thick wire, generated low voltage OD -75 mm Inside- 63mm stator inside -27mm ( But with CR s alternators it would be more work to adapt, as stator arranged to engine side like on first generation Rgv VJ21, not on cover like SAPC Rgv/Rs)
VF 500 OD- 136mm. Inside-115mm

With Honda CR 125 2004 (low voltage 12v plus) 8 poles stator and two plates, its easy to make alternator for V2 90 engine( add photo). Tested on NS 250 and works fine. With two plates it is possible adjust different timing for both cylinders just in seconds at testing..
CR 125 2002-2003 and 2005-2007 alternator stator with 4 poles ( middle voltage type 70v plus) not worked for two cylinders. Not tested with CR 125 2001 and older 8 poles high voltage alternators.

Cheers i am not totally sure but i believe a lot of the later KTM and Husky 2t have a Very similar size mag flywheel from the same maker Kokistan not sure re the taper but it should be able to cross reference off Electrix and HPI sites

You can find the lighting output stators quite cheapo if you go aftermarket.
pretty sure the electric start ones are straight DC 100W to about 200W
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/08-...-do-that.2755/
https://www.rmstator.com/en_ww/produ...-rms010-101534
https://www.trailtech.net/hard-parts...tm-stator-kits
https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-147.html

[Frits Overmars]

when doing a radius to the transfer entry as shown in the pic, do I need to replate the cylinder? I thought that should be not nesseccary as long the plating was not damaged while grinding, right?

Right, sort of. When grinding, there will always be some plastic deformation of the underlying aluminium, causing tension in the adhesion between the nickel and the alu. So don't put too much force on the grinder and finish the transition between nickel and alu with a diamond file.
Luckily there will be no piston ring running over this transition. Modifying the port edges, especially the exhaust port top edge, will require more subtlety.
In the latter case, it is advisable to radius the exhaust top edge before plating, and finish it with a diamond file after plating.

[F5 Dave]

Cheers i am not totally sure but i believe a lot of the later KTM and Husky 2t have a Very similar size mag flywheel from the same maker Kokistan not sure re the taper but it should be able to cross reference off Electrix and HPI sites

You can find the lighting output stators quite cheapo if you go aftermarket.
pretty sure the electric start ones are straight DC 100W to about 200W
http://www.cafehusky.com/threads/08-...-do-that.2755/
https://www.rmstator.com/en_ww/produ...-rms010-101534
https://www.trailtech.net/hard-parts...tm-stator-kits
https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-147.html

I have an electrex on my gasgas, appears good quality, however didn't need lots of power so just the 2k3, same as ktm.

[_____]

Rgv/Rs SAPC OD-106mm. Inside –90mm.
CRF250/450 (2009-2016) OD- 90mm. Inside-78mm. neodymium ( multiple lumps ) stator inside 32mm
CRF250/450 (2002-2008) OD 75mm. Inside-63mm (two lumps one long and one short add photo ) stator inside ?
CRF450 (2017-2019) OD- 102mm Inside- 90mm neodymium
CR 125 only 2004 stator, with thick wire, generated low voltage OD -75 mm Inside- 63mm stator inside -27mm ( But with CR s alternators it would be more work to adapt, as stator arranged to engine side like on first generation Rgv VJ21, not on cover like SAPC Rgv/Rs)
VF 500 OD- 136mm. Inside-115mm

With Honda CR 125 2004 (low voltage 12v plus and very likely Crf 250/450 2002-2008 just opposite stator location ) 8 poles stator and two plates, its easy to make alternator for V2 90 engine( add photo). Tested on NS 250 and works fine with two 2004 Cdi KSRA with inside voltage converters, but it must work with programmable Ignitech or Zeeltronic too. With two plates it is possible adjust different timing for both cylinders just in seconds at testing..
CR 125 2002-2003 and 2005-2007 alternator stator with 4 poles ( middle voltage type 70v plus) not worked for V90 two cylinders with two std Cr 125 cdi . Not tested with CR 125 2001 and older, 8 poles high voltage alternators.

Thank you so much! This is all very helpful!
One question left: are you certain about the outer diameter of 63mm on the '04 CR125 stator? Because I know that a lot of kokusan rotors (also the Magneto LFS from Ignitech) have 59-60mm stator diameter?!

Hi guy's,
when doing a radius to the transfer entry as shown in the pic, do I need to replate the cylinder? I thought that should be not nesseccary as long the plating was not damaged while grinding, right?

I agree with Frits, i would also add a polishing finish to the transition of plating to alloy. On that cylinder my #1 priority would be to fill the sharp lathing edge with 2k epoxy, starting from the red mark.