Beehive occupation.

[TheDemonLord]

so why didn't this protest occur when the mandates came in, or when people started to lose their jobs if they were genuine? Why did it have to wait till they saw truckers do it in canada, and copy that?

I mean, I've been quite vocal about my opposition to Mandates from Day 1...

However, to answer your question seriously - it's a multi-faceted answer

1: As time has elapsed, more and more there is solid scientific data confirming that Omicron is on par with the Flu. Part of the pragmatic justification (not the Moral one, there is no Moral justification for discrimination), was that the measures would stop large numbers of people dying.

2: As time has elapsed, the justification of why you would only allow Vaccinated people in a certain area (which was to stop or slow the spread of the disease) has shown to be bullshit. Like I made the point months ago - the Vaccination after about 3 months only reduces the chance of you passing on the disease (compared to someone who is unvaccinated) by 20% - The pragmatic justification from that sense also has gone.

3: People were disillusioned at how they could make the Government listen (since this Government has shown it doesn't, repeatedly) - then along came some Glorious Bacon eating, Maple Syrup Drinking Canucks and their CanTrucks and showed the world that actually you can very quickly remind the Government that it is 'We, the People' who wield ultimate executive power.

I think I got my first leaflet from the pro-freedom group way back in December and there had been numerous small-scale protests leading up to it (with no media coverage of course).

The Canadians showed us there is a way and so people said 'well, that seems to work - let's do that' and so it snowballed.

Why are all the vidoes that they leak out that allegedly show police brutatlity never show the minute of two leading up to that point so we can make a for judgement ourselves?

Look, I'm as skeptical of the claim of Police Brutality as much as the next guy, in Canada for example, we've got quite a few instances of 'Police Brutality' where the Police flat-out lied (the Old Lady and her Walker getting trampled by a horse, for the Canadian Police to claim 'someone threw a bike at the horse') - the other issue is that the Protest is not officially sanctioned. By that I mean it doesn't have the same endorsement as the i

Surely if this lot represent many new zealanders, or the majority of them, there would have been other sizeable protests throughout the country?

There have been. They just haven't been reported on. I said at the start that to-date, the turnout for the passing of the Freedom Convoy where I live was larger than the Farmers Protest (which was pretty big).

Most people aren't all that keen on Protesting and most also have a healthy skepticism of any protest or protestor: 'Haven't they got better things to do, like go to work like the rest of us?'

But if you were to also ask most Kiwis whether they felt it was right to turn away someone from a business, based on their beliefs - they'd say no.

[jellywrestler]

There have been. They just haven't been reported on. I said at the start that to-date, the turnout for the passing of the Freedom Convoy where I live was larger than the Farmers Protest (which was pretty big).

Most people aren't all that keen on Protesting and most also have a healthy skepticism of any protest or protestor: 'Haven't they got better things to do, like go to work like the rest of us?'

But if you were to also ask most Kiwis whether they felt it was right to turn away someone from a business, based on their beliefs - they'd say no.

haven't been reported on? have you heard of social media, there were a few on the roundabout at carterton, a few in a reasonable sized rural town, there will always be support for things, but it really seems so small in real life. The BLM march to parilament was many times this, and what was that all about.?
Social media can drum up a storm, but 'people aren't keen on protesting' hardly explains the tiny numbers

[jellywrestler]

42 police in 10000 lost their jobs it said on the project last week, that's 0.42%. ok, so how many of these were anti mandate and how many antivax and how many medically didn't want it?
There's an expected requirement of intelligence to join the police for a start, lets say a third of these were in each camp then that that's about 1.5 in a thousand anti mandate, that's hardly representitive of the country is it?

[TheDemonLord]

haven't been reported on? have you heard of social media, there were a few on the roundabout at carterton, a few in a reasonable sized rural town, there will always be support for things, but it really seems so small in real life.

Sure - but we've seen time and time again News reporting on protests whereby if it's an approved protest, the numbers are puffed up, it's described positively 'Mostly peaceful' (that quote will never get old), whereas if it's not an approved protest, it's 'just a few indviduals, no clear goals, racists, sexists blah blah blah'.

But I want to focus on your comment about a few in Carterton, What other protests in recent times generated a turnout in Caterton? I'm guessing the Farmers protest - what else?

The BLM march to parilament was many times this, and what was that all about.?

I don't doubt that - seeing as it's very easy for someone living in Wellington, who shares the left-wing metropolitan Mindset to take a little stroll for a day, whereas to come from another part of the country is a big ask

Social media can drum up a storm, but 'people aren't keen on protesting' hardly explains the tiny numbers

It's more a case of who are the type of people that support it - take me for example, I've got a full time job (I could work remotely) but I also have Kids who go to School (and I've got reasonably strong principles against involving children in any protest action, including protests I agree with) - Some have called me out for not being down there - and yeah, they've got a pretty good point.

I'm not a University Student living down the road from the Beehive that can just pack everything up and go protest.

The group of people who I think the cause for the protest has most support from (Libertarian centre-right types) are generally not ones to protest in the first place and they often have other commitments.

[jellywrestler]

But I want to focus on your comment about a few in Carterton, What other protests in recent times generated a turnout in Caterton? I'm guessing the Farmers protest - what else?


.

i don't know, but whatever it is a few people on a roundabout don't represent a majority nor even a decent number. The farmers protest was very very short, this has dominated the news for a couple of weeks and everyone has an opinion, yet again, just a bit more than a handful care enough to appear. ???

[jellywrestler]

I don't doubt that - seeing as it's very easy for someone living in Wellington, who shares the left-wing metropolitan Mindset to take a little stroll for a day, whereas to come from another part of the country is a big ask

so where's the wellingtonians then, why isn't the place jam packed then? Just what percentage of our country actually do support what is going on there? Seems like sweet fuck all really.
Russel Coutts and a singer from a band turn up, wow, what about all the other 'influential people' then, like the rest of his crew or the rest of the band, or indeed anyone else from a band or a sport, any sport????
I support the right to protest, but right here there seems to be a very very tiny minority of our country causing a lot of grief.
Might start an on line petition for something, dunno what though, any ideas?

[FJRider]

For the record, I Am not jabbed.

Perhaps you should be.

It's in your best interest ... really.


Just saying ...

[R650R]

so why didn't this protest occur when the mandates came in, or when people started to lose their jobs if they were genuine? Why did it have to wait till they saw truckers do it in canada, and copy that?
Why are all the vidoes that they leak out that allegedly show police brutatlity never show the minute of two leading up to that point so we can make a for judgement ourselves?
Surely if this lot represent many new zealanders, or the majority of them, there would have been other sizeable protests throughout the country?

Because it was done in piecemeal fashion just like other erosions of peoples rights in last 50 years itÂ’s the old frog boiling in pot principle.
First we were told itÂ’s just for two weeks to eliminate the virus....
Then oh just a short lockdown to flatten the curve.
No we wonÂ’t force people to wear masks or scan...
New minnit you have to wear a mask to get food
You have to scan everywhere
No we wonÂ’t force the vaccine
Slowly more vocations added to mandatory list
Then you canÂ’t get a haircut, dine out or go to pub without vax
All brought in as death rates dropped I might add....

Now just imagine if they had done this all at once?

Most of us are old enough to remember the freedom of the 80Â’s...
Imagine if all at once the govt of the day had said we are implementing....
4K speed tolerance all year
Drink drive checkpoints anytime anywhere
Cancelling gun licence and make youÂ’ve reapply
Must carry driver licence
Ban fireworks
You canÂ’t build shed without council permission etc
You canÂ’t call anyone a fag, gay or handicapped etc
No burnouts
Instant licence loss for 40k over limit
$500 to register a motorbike
Reapply for your lifetime car and gun licence every ten years
Ban fireplaces

I know thereÂ’s more...,


Remember the tooth fairy is the single source of truth so the state sponsored media welfare bludgers arenÂ’t about to publish unpopular public opinion so a picture of widespread acceptance was fostered. Slowly the cracks began to appear and even fluff news published various pieces critical of govt policy that didnÂ’t make sense. ThereÂ’s so much uncertainty and emotion people are reluctant to voice contrary opinions. From day one in my circles itÂ’s been prob a 50/50 split as to whether itÂ’s something to fear or just a bad flu.... as time goes by people reflect on their own reality of whatÂ’s happening around them bs what the govt and media said was going to happen...

[jellywrestler]

Because it was done in piecemeal fashion just like other erosions of peoples rights in last 50 years itÂ’s the old frog boiling in pot principle.
First we were told itÂ’s just for two weeks to eliminate the virus....
Then oh just a short lockdown to flatten the curve.
No we wonÂ’t force people to wear masks or scan...
New minnit you have to wear a mask to get food
You have to scan everywhere
No we wonÂ’t force the vaccine
Slowly more vocations added to mandatory list
Then you canÂ’t get a haircut, dine out or go to pub without vax
All brought in as death rates dropped I might add....

Now just imagine if they had done this all at once?

Most of us are old enough to remember the freedom of the 80Â’s...
Imagine if all at once the govt of the day had said we are implementing....
4K speed tolerance all year
Drink drive checkpoints anytime anywhere
Cancelling gun licence and make youÂ’ve reapply
Must carry driver licence
Ban fireworks
You canÂ’t build shed without council permission etc
You canÂ’t call anyone a fag, gay or handicapped etc
No burnouts
Instant licence loss for 40k over limit
$500 to register a motorbike
Reapply for your lifetime car and gun licence every ten years
Ban fireplaces

I know thereÂ’s more...,


Remember the tooth fairy is the single source of truth so the state sponsored media welfare bludgers aren’t about to publish unpopular public opinion so a picture of widespread acceptance was fostered. Slowly the cracks began to appear and even fluff news published various pieces critical of govt policy that didn’t make sense. There’s so much uncertainty and emotion people are reluctant to voice contrary opinions. From day one in my circles itÂ’s been prob a 50/50 split as to whether it’s something to fear or just a bad flu.... as time goes by people reflect on their own reality of what’s happening around them bs what the govt and media said was going to happen...

so it's not about these mandates now it's about drink drive checkpoints? I see your point, they want anarchy I think

[TheDemonLord]

i don't know, but whatever it is a few people on a roundabout don't represent a majority nor even a decent number. The farmers protest was very very short, this has dominated the news for a couple of weeks and everyone has an opinion, yet again, just a bit more than a handful care enough to appear. ???

My point is that the protestors aren't limited to just Auckland and Wellington.

100 people showing up to protest in Auckland is a big nothing burger.

10 people showing up to protest in Carterton shows that the Protest has much further reach and support.

so where's the wellingtonians then, why isn't the place jam packed then?
Just what percentage of our country actually do support what is going on there? Seems like sweet fuck all really.
Russel Coutts and a singer from a band turn up, wow, what about all the other 'influential people' then, like the rest of his crew or the rest of the band, or indeed anyone else from a band or a sport, any sport????

Remember what I said about 'approved' left wing protests? This is the difference. You can support a Communist racial Supremecy group (BLM) and have all the corporate sponsors, media etc. fawning over you, but anyone who supports an unapproved protest would have their livelihood ripped away.

In terms of percentage, depending on who you ask (and what question you ask) - the support for the Protestors is around 10-30%.

I would put the general feeling as to being over the Covid restrictions (Tracer App, Vaccine passport) at around 50% - the reason I say that is if you look at the public NZ Tracer data - back in September, the number of Scans went from ~500,000 to around 2-3 Million Daily. Bearing in mind, most people want to be law abiding - so if the rules suddenly change that you *have* to scan, most people did.

Those rules are still in place, but we've gone from a peak in December to over 3 Million daily scans, to around 1.6-1.8 million daily scans.

That's a drop of Half, amongst the group that generally wants to be Law-Abiding. If you factor into that the 500,000 scans or so that are from people who would (regardless of the rules) always scan in - e.g. a baseline group, you go from 2.5 million scans (that is people who otherwise wouldn't bother to scan) down to 1.1 - 1.3 million scans.

I support the right to protest, but right here there seems to be a very very tiny minority of our country causing a lot of grief.
Might start an on line petition for something, dunno what though, any ideas?

I remember a petition about the Semi-Auto Ban that was completely ignored. It's causing a lot of Grief, yes - but for whom? It's the same issue in Canada - The PM either has to backtrack on all the fear mongering (and look weak) or tried to ignore/clamp down on the protest and looking increasingly tyrannical.

It's a loose/loose situation for the Government - and I'm 100% here for it.

[FJRider]

Whether I'm a total Fuckwit or not has no bearing on the fact that both of you cannot be correct ...

So ... you admit it (using your logic) .... and Of course not. It's usually just me that's correct.

and since you both use the same evidence to support your statements - the most likely outcome is that you are both wrong.

Most likely ... means possibly. Or NOT.

Those most likely to win ... often don't.

Go figure.

It's called a hypothetical scenario for a reason... but fortunately you then said this

A very nicely and neatly articulated belief in Bodily Autonomy. As you said, nothing goes into your body that you don't have a damn good reason for.

I got a got a knife in me once from a dude that wanted my wallet. I returned the favour ... and gave it back.

Sometimes ... the reasons aren't good.

The 'anti-vaxxers', the Anti-Mandate folks, the pro-freedom group - they all entirely agree that nothing should go in THEIR bodies that THEY don't have a damn good reason for.

Their personal choice. What they failed to consider ... was the restrictions that would then (sooner or later) be placed on their activities.

They ALL were all warned well in advance of the restrictions being put in place.

And they are not being carted off to "Health Camps" in railway cattle wagons for their jabs.

That statement proves the entire point I was making.

You believe you have a right to Bodily Autonomy, as evidenced by that one statement, the protestors believe they have a right to it to.

As above ... there are exceptions to the rule. Shit happens now and then. The one person mentioned above with the sharp object ... was NOT a (New Zealand) Government employee.

New Zealand Government employees don't stick things in you without your permission. Unless you have been declared legally unfit to make those decisions.

Then ... suck it up sunshine ...

Exactly, you agreed, I agreed - I agreed of my own volition, without any fiat of compulsion or force. That's the standard that I expect. Anything else is Tyranny.

Then enjoy all the freedoms the un-vaxxed aren't allowed to enjoy.

But you are not compelled to listen or to read them. You choose to.

If for no other reason ... than it gives me a laugh. Poking fun at you is almost a hobby. On my work week ... my movements are greatly restricted due to my work location. And not much on TV after work hours.

Except all that science stuff and data stuff and the opinion of the person that discovered it and reality.

All I've seen are claims ... STUFF was never that reliable ... news wise.

Sure, I remember Lord Haw Haw was hung - however his mere existence proves that at one point in time Journalists were willing, even in wartime, to give contrary opinion.

A wartime radio announcer would hardly be considered a journalist ... and ... There were quite a number of Radio announcers in Germany ... that were known and referred to as as "Lord Haw Haw".

Interesting reading here ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw


A "William Joyce" was captured by British forces in northern Germany just as the war ended. Tried and eventually hanged for treason on 3 January 1946. Joyce's defense team was appointed by the court (A fair trial .. ?? ) and argued that as an American citizen and naturalized German ... Joyce could not be convicted of treason against the British Crown. However ... the prosecution successfully argued that ... since he had lied about his nationality to obtain a British passport and voted in Britain ... Joyce owed allegiance to the king.

All said and done ... hardly justice at all ... let alone GUILT. Especially when there was more than ONE Lord Haw Haw.

[TheDemonLord]

So ... you admit it (using your logic) .... and Of course not. It's usually just me that's correct.

Most likely ... means possibly. Or NOT.

Those most likely to win ... often don't.

Go figure.

I admit nothing, At this point - I'm enjoying the Irony more than anything.

I got a got a knife in me once from a dude that wanted my wallet. I returned the favour ... and gave it back.

Sometimes ... the reasons aren't good.

Did you consider it wrong a violation of something when it happened?

Their personal choice. What they failed to consider ... was the restrictions that would then (sooner or later) be placed on their activities.

They ALL were all warned well in advance of the restrictions being put in place.

And they are not being carted off to "Health Camps" in railway cattle wagons for their jabs.

When there's an element of Compulsion (that is restricting fundamental freedoms and requiring discrimination), then it's no longer a personal Choice.

I see no difference between discriminating using the force of Government and the Thief in your scenario - both used an element of Coercion to try and do something they had no right to do. The only difference is that you fought off the Attacker, the people protesting are using Force to fight off theirs.

As above ... there are exceptions to the rule. Shit happens now and then. The one person mentioned above with the sharp object ... was NOT a (New Zealand) Government employee.

New Zealand Government employees don't stick things in you without your permission. Unless you have been declared legally unfit to make those decisions.

Then ... suck it up sunshine ...

Yes, but he did violate your Bodily Autonomy and based on that, you felt you had some moral justification to defend yourself.

the moment the Government stuck a fine on not checking the Vaccine Pass, they are using Force. If you don't pay the Fine, what happens? They Garnish your income. If you have no Income, what happens? They take your stuff. If you try to fight back or you have nothing to take, you get thrown in Jail.

Those are all elements of Force.

Then enjoy all the freedoms the un-vaxxed aren't allowed to enjoy.

To do so would violate my Moral Code. To get a Vaccine Pass would be to give my tacit approval that discrimination against a group of people, regardless of my personal opinion of them, is right and justified.

That is something I cannot and will not do. If it means I have to suffer, so be it - my conscious is clean.

If for no other reason ... than it gives me a laugh. Poking fun at you is almost a hobby. On my work week ... my movements are greatly restricted due to my work location. And not much on TV after work hours.

Glad to be of service, FWIW - despite the fact you lost any moral high ground in the last post when you agreed that Bodily Autonomy was a thing that you believed in, you still make some interesting points.

All I've seen are claims ... STUFF was never that reliable ... news wise.

STUFF is little more than an opinion Blog site, I rarely use it for actual news, if ever.

A wartime radio announcer would hardly be considered a journalist ... and ... There were quite a number of Radio announcers in Germany ... that were known and referred to as as "Lord Haw Haw".

Interesting reading here ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Haw-Haw

A "William Joyce" was captured by British forces in northern Germany just as the war ended. Tried and eventually hanged for treason on 3 January 1946. Joyce's defense team was appointed by the court (A fair trial .. ?? ) and argued that as an American citizen and naturalized German ... Joyce could not be convicted of treason against the British Crown. However ... the prosecution successfully argued that ... since he had lied about his nationality to obtain a British passport and voted in Britain ... Joyce owed allegiance to the king.

All said and done ... hardly justice at all ... let alone GUILT. Especially when there was more than ONE Lord Haw Haw.

It's definitely an interesting Read - but the point remains - Announcer/Journalist - plenty of people willing to buck the trend.

[mashman]

Perhaps you should be.

It's in your best interest ... really.

Just saying ...

Thanks for the concern.

Not according to a body of evidence that is being ignored. I'll wait.

[FJRider]

I admit nothing, At this point

Personal choice. Fair enough.

Did you consider it wrong a violation of something when it happened?

I could have picked better parts of town to eat. He obviously thought it was a perfectly normal thing to do.

What some refer to as normal ... others may not. Does that make it right if YOU think it is normal .. ??

If I think something is normal and ok ... and you don't ... Who is wrong .. ??

When there's an element of Compulsion (that is restricting fundamental freedoms and requiring discrimination), then it's no longer a personal Choice.

If YOU believe you have been restricted in your fundamental freedoms ... Fight it. Argue it in Court. As is your right.

But in times of a national Pandemic ... you might expect some restrictions. To not expect them is stupid. To not WANT them is normal.

I see no difference between discriminating using the force of Government and the Thief in your scenario - both used an element of Coercion to try and do something they had no right to do. The only difference is that you fought off the Attacker, the people protesting are using Force to fight off theirs.

What if ... Hypothetically ... HE believed he DID have the right ... ?? As you believe YOU have the right to speak and act as you do .. ??

Yes, but he did violate your Bodily Autonomy and based on that, you felt you had some moral justification to defend yourself.

I don't like leaking the red stuff. That pisses me off. I'm not that big ... so I haven't got much to start with.


Just saying ...

the moment the Government stuck a fine on not checking the Vaccine Pass, they are using Force. If you don't pay the Fine, what happens? They Garnish your income. If you have no Income, what happens? They take your stuff. If you try to fight back or you have nothing to take, you get thrown in Jail.

Bullshit. There are rules and there is reality. Those places I went to today (I'm at home this week) ... that I haven't visited previously ... checked my vaccine passport ... or just asked to see it. Those places I went that knew me didn't. Are either businesses (or members of the public) being charged by Police in large numbers ... for not following the Covid rules ... ?? If not ... then it cannot be described as FORCE.

Only to those that continue to disregard the rules ... openly refusing to obey Police requests on multiple occasions ... will the threat of arrest be considered ... or made ... and as a last resort ... carried out.

Reality ... when I left all the places ... they ALL knew I had one.

Those are all elements of Force.

Reality of force ... is when the handcuffs go on with every occasion of rule breaking. Is THAT actually happening .. ??

To do so would violate my Moral Code. To get a Vaccine Pass would be to give my tacit approval that discrimination against a group of people, regardless of my personal opinion of them, is right and justified.

WHY GET THE JABS THEN ... ??

That is something I cannot and will not do. If it means I have to suffer, so be it - my conscious is clean.

I've found that peoples sense of their moral code changes ... when they believe their life is actually severely at risk.

Just saying ...

Glad to be of service, FWIW - despite the fact you lost any moral high ground in the last post when you agreed that Bodily Autonomy was a thing that you believed in, you still make some interesting points.

You forget ... I'm ex Army. Simple fact ... we were trained to kill people.

Some might say we lacked morals to be able to do so ... I disagree. Hypothetically even ... I might have been sent to kill on your behalf.

Do you feel better ... or worse now.

It's definitely an interesting Read - but the point remains - Announcer/Journalist - plenty of people willing to buck the trend.

It wasn't a "Trend" ... they were doing ... it was just part of their War effort. And usually reporting false news.


There is a word for that ... it's called propaganda. Is that a hanging offense ... ??


You might (or might not) be familiar with the term ... but it certainly differs from what most regard as ... "Actual News".

[FJRider]

Thanks for the concern.

Not according to a body of evidence that is being ignored. I'll wait.

No problem. It's probably being ignored for a reason.


And probably due to bodies being buried.


Where are the bodies of evidence buried ... ??



And ... Waiting is your right.




Unless you're wrong.